Phosphate and pH problems

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Katiestl

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
15
Hi, I've posted before, but got a ton of mixed advice with no one really reading my entire problem. (Please read bold items--I am desperate for the answers to these questions). So, i believe I've solved the problem on my own, but at the same time have no solution. My 20gallon tank has been overproducing algae. It has killed the plants and now 1 fish has died. another may be sick. I have run every test out there. Every level is normal except two. Please don't ask what that means, just trust me that if there is a test, I've got it and everything from ammonia to water hardness is fine. I've been to three stores and our results are always the same.


So, our pH in the St. Louis area is high. A lot of people here have fish and do not import water. Our aqua store uses Neutral Regulator for this issue. It is used for chlorine removal. We've been using it for a year. Then, in late summer we got some weird orange spots on tank and plants. Plants became stunted. Fish were fine. We cleaned the tank, changed the water frequently and added some Phosguard. Well, that orange stuff disappeared and was replaced with black algae a few weeks later. It doesn't grow on the glass, but on every plant,the thermometer and filter are covered. days after cleaning it returns.


So, I tested the phosphates. They are as high as the test allows for. Water turns navy. Well, the neutral regulator is the cause. It contains phosphates. So, I've been normalizing the pH due to extra water changes and as a result, I caused this problem. I asked several times here and no one knew about it. So, I tested tap water plus neutral regulator=dark blue. Our tap water does not have high phosphate content. So, all store people here in St. Louis have been telling me to lower pH and phosphate, but I cannot do one without raising the other.


Is there a way to lower my pH without something that uses Phosphate buffers? This product is great because it wouldn't take the pH lower than 7--it simply adjusted it whether it was low or high.


Also, I now need a different dechlorinator. I will not use a cheap, crappy one. When I was using those I had ammonia problems. Maybe it was coincidence but who knows. Neutral regulator also neutralizes ammonia if it becomes problematic, plus it helps lower it. Great product but not if you have an algae problem. so, it cured our ammonia problem, helps with nitrates, nitrites and is killing my tank.


Please, there must be a simple solution to this. It explains everything.
 
Seachem safe or prime is a good water conditioner.

That sounds like the issue I had where phosphate based buffers were resulting in phosphate off charts and killed many plants (I suspect combining with iron or manganese). A non phosphate buffer like seachem would be worth a try. However every water change might need treatment.

https://www.seachem.com/acid-buffer.php

I didn’t realise you were using a seachem product already but do find them good value. It sounds like the phosphate itself wasn’t an issue (I run my tank at 2ppm phosphate) but it resulted in an imbalance between lights, ferts and CO2. Reducing light duration / intensity may also assist.
 
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I know a good way to help with all of the above issues but it may not be a very popular one. It is one that I use very successfully with my own tank and one many others do too. It’s called the no water change method.

Think of how many problems this one simple change eradicates.

1.) No need for dechlorinator.
2.) No need to buffer ph as aged water will naturally begin to drop ph levels.
3.) Lower phosphate levels as you allow the tank to stabilise and plants utilise excess phosphates.
4.) No more worry for ammonia. The plants and biological filter will take care of that.
5.) No more testing. When phosphates eventually hit zero, you can stop testing.
6.) Less tank maintenance, more tank enjoyment.
7.) No more algae. Eventually with doing nothing but feeding the fish daily, the algae will die. Yes it WILL die.
8.) Stable parameters. Mean the plants have stable and consistent daily parameters to gear growth towards. Fluctuations in parameters can ‘confuse’ plants and force them to discard and adapt leaves constantly.

IMG_1262.jpg

My tank here is going on 10 months with nothing but rain water top ups or RO when rain is scarce.

No fish deaths, no shrimp deaths, no algae, plant growth is slow.

No fertilisers, no Co2, low light. Stable tank that just gets healthier and healthier by the day.
 
I second Seachem Prime. Why are you lowering your pH and what is your pH out of the tap?

Scratch that.......I posted in your original post. I remember your issues now.
 
OK--still not the problem that people are seeing. I do not know how to make this clearer. All my fish are dying. everything but Nitrate and Phosphate are normal. Nitrate is highest ever at 4-8, this could be the frequent water changes or the dying plants. I was using neutral regulator as my dechlorinator. I was told it was safe and had the added benefit of keeping your pH stable. I have goldfish, 2 minnows and 2 Corys. 1 minnow died already.



Neutral regulator by Seachem is Phosphate. My phosphate level is off the charts high. That has caused all problems. Algae on every plant and rock and filter. Every water change I have been changing out the Phosguard and unbeknownst to me adding a ton of Phosphate back into my tank by using Neutral regulator. See the problem? My phosphate test turns navy, the darkest color on the test is medium blue. I am way over the highest level listed--this contributed to my ridiculous algae growth that has been getting worse for 6 months. I tried doing nothing, it doesn't work, tank turned black. All plants died. I have three plants left that have comeback since I added flourish excel.



So, as I stated before, our water pH is normally 8.5-9. So, I need to either find another product that can keep the treated tank water at its current 7.5 (remember I've been using Neutral regulator--this is what it brought our water down to)or raise the pH slowly(to not hurt the fish) by doing small water changes(1-2gallons) frequently. This will remove the excess phosphate and also slowly raise the pH.


So, again, locals have told me having high pH is NOT a problem as long as I change it slowly to not disturb the fish. People here told me it was a potential problem as have other forums.



Seachem is a brand, not a product, So i have no idea what product you are telling me to buy. I already contacted them directly, the only buffer they have to keep pH at neutral is in fact Neutral regulator. The other two either raise your pH really high or make it really low for cichlids, which I don't need.


So, I just used Prime for the first time 20 minutes ago and my fish are dead/dying or behaving oddly. I removed 3 gallons of phosphate rich water and added back 3 gallons of Prime treated water instead of Neutral regulator treated water. So, it's pH was around 9 from our tap. 2 minutes later one Cory is dying. he was fine 20 minutes ago. This is a literal nightmare, what the hell is going on? I figured out the problem with Phosphates, why would Prime kill him? I added about 4 drops per 1.5 gallon bucket. According to Seachem the dose is 2 drops per gallon. I went over by one drop just in case my drops were small. This is still a safe dose. Another minnow is in distress now too. Please, quit with the lights being a problem, this has been going on for 6 months. If they were the problem it would be fixed. I went 4 months with lights at normal and plants flourishing--until the phosphate built up, I had no algae. i just need to figure out why they are dying. Only nitrate is high, but Neutral regulator and Prime both claim to detoxify nitrate. Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0. pH is slightly higher now--more like 7.8 than 7.6. That is a tiny change. Also might not be accurate as the tank hasn't thoroughly cycled this stuff through yet.


UPDATE: I just removed one goldfish. The last week or so, we have noticed the goldfish being aggressive towards each other. Ramming. I have never seen this before. After I added the prime water to the tank I saw them acting crazy and found one cory in distress. The water change was minimal, the correct temp within a degree and dechlorinated. Watched them for 20 minutes, I found a potential wound on my minnow, red and bulging with a white spot behind it. I saw the goldfish brush past a cory, he got hurt, started tumbling over and over. What the hell is this? Is it the messed up water or do goldfish develop death grudges overnight? I have never seen any aggression in the tank. I removed what I think is the instigator--the smaller fish. She is now in a bowl, so thats great. So confused and depressed. every time I find a solution another problem pops up. The black stuff is receding from our rocks, but now fish are dying.


Do I need low pH?
Can high nitrates make fish crazy?
I have to choose between letting my goldfish live in a tank or kill my other fish if I put them back.
 
OK--still not the problem that people are seeing. I do not know how to make this clearer. All my fish are dying. everything but Nitrate and Phosphate are normal. Nitrate is highest ever at 4-8, this could be the frequent water changes or the dying plants. I was using neutral regulator as my dechlorinator. I was told it was safe and had the added benefit of keeping your pH stable. I have goldfish, 2 minnows and 2 Corys. 1 minnow died already.



Neutral regulator by Seachem is Phosphate. My phosphate level is off the charts high. That has caused all problems. Algae on every plant and rock and filter. Every water change I have been changing out the Phosguard and unbeknownst to me adding a ton of Phosphate back into my tank by using Neutral regulator. See the problem? My phosphate test turns navy, the darkest color on the test is medium blue. I am way over the highest level listed--this contributed to my ridiculous algae growth that has been getting worse for 6 months. I tried doing nothing, it doesn't work, tank turned black. All plants died. I have three plants left that have comeback since I added flourish excel.



So, as I stated before, our water pH is normally 8.5-9. So, I need to either find another product that can keep the treated tank water at its current 7.5 (remember I've been using Neutral regulator--this is what it brought our water down to)or raise the pH slowly(to not hurt the fish) by doing small water changes(1-2gallons) frequently. This will remove the excess phosphate and also slowly raise the pH.


So, again, locals have told me having high pH is NOT a problem as long as I change it slowly to not disturb the fish. People here told me it was a potential problem as have other forums.



Seachem is a brand, not a product, So i have no idea what product you are telling me to buy. I already contacted them directly, the only buffer they have to keep pH at neutral is in fact Neutral regulator. The other two either raise your pH really high or make it really low for cichlids, which I don't need.


So, I just used Prime for the first time 20 minutes ago and my fish are dead/dying or behaving oddly. I removed 3 gallons of phosphate rich water and added back 3 gallons of Prime treated water instead of Neutral regulator treated water. So, it's pH was around 9 from our tap. 2 minutes later one Cory is dying. he was fine 20 minutes ago. This is a literal nightmare, what the hell is going on? I figured out the problem with Phosphates, why would Prime kill him? I added about 4 drops per 1.5 gallon bucket. According to Seachem the dose is 2 drops per gallon. I went over by one drop just in case my drops were small. This is still a safe dose. Another minnow is in distress now too. Please, quit with the lights being a problem, this has been going on for 6 months. If they were the problem it would be fixed. I went 4 months with lights at normal and plants flourishing--until the phosphate built up, I had no algae. i just need to figure out why they are dying. Only nitrate is high, but Neutral regulator and Prime both claim to detoxify nitrate. Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0. pH is slightly higher now--more like 7.8 than 7.6. That is a tiny change. Also might not be accurate as the tank hasn't thoroughly cycled this stuff through yet.


UPDATE: I just removed one goldfish. The last week or so, we have noticed the goldfish being aggressive towards each other. Ramming. I have never seen this before. After I added the prime water to the tank I saw them acting crazy and found one cory in distress. The water change was minimal, the correct temp within a degree and dechlorinated. Watched them for 20 minutes, I found a potential wound on my minnow, red and bulging with a white spot behind it. I saw the goldfish brush past a cory, he got hurt, started tumbling over and over. What the hell is this? Is it the messed up water or do goldfish develop death grudges overnight? I have never seen any aggression in the tank. I removed what I think is the instigator--the smaller fish. She is now in a bowl, so thats great. So confused and depressed. every time I find a solution another problem pops up. The black stuff is receding from our rocks, but now fish are dying.


Do I need low pH?
Can high nitrates make fish crazy?
I have to choose between letting my goldfish live in a tank or kill my other fish if I put them back.


Your water is messed up. Stop using it. Use rain or spring water and change little more often. Buy a TDS pen for next to nothing and give us a reading.

Tap water isn’t made in the best interest of aquatic animals. Dechlorinating it and binding heavy metals is great and all but what else is in it? Do you have a water quality report? Where does it come from? Is it temperature matched when adding directly? Is your water going cloudy? How many fish you got in there? Can cory’s and goldfish cohabit?
 
Do you mean 40-80 for the nitrates instead of 4-8? If you are using API’s test kits, the increments should be 0, 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160. Most try to keep nitrates at or below 20 (depending on the stock). Frequent water changes should not increase nitrates unless there are nitrates in the water supply.
I cannot see why Prime would be causing the problems you are describing. It could be the difference in pH for the new water. Not sure though because in my high tech tank with tetras, Otos, Amano shrimp, and celestial pearl danios, the pH would swing from 8.0 down to 6.6-6.8 and then back to 8 in the course of the day due to CO2 being injected. Fish and shrimp were fine. I kept the phosphates in the 5-10 range in that tank.
Mixing distilled or reverse osmosis water with your tap water will bring the pH down in your case. You will have to experiment with how much or each should be mixed to get the desired pH and, most importantly, ANY change in regimen should be done slowly.
 
Simply cut your tank water with the buffer I suggested until desired ph is reached. I believe this solves your initial posted questions.

Possible iron phosphate issue, however regardless - you now have an imbalance and the planted tank system as a whole needs to be looked. Reducing light intensity and duration I find is a very, very useful method in controlling algae.

Seachem prime isn’t the issue.

Your nitrates are high but ok’ish for those fish (not long term ideal).

Need to now know all about the fish - are they gasping at surface before they die, etc.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/plant_problems.html
 
Delapool--younever suggested a buffer, you suggested a brand. Seachem makes buffers, none of them can be used with high phosphates or Phosguard. Maybe you said it later and I missed it, my computer hates this forum and it jumps while I read.



Again, I was only using neutral regulator because it was suggested as a good dechlorinator. It killed my taNK with phosphates. So, as I've stated numerous times, I need to change out the water more slowly because it had brought my water pH to 7.5 from somewhere around 9. So, instead of my weekly 25% water changes to remove phosphate and black algae, I need to do it slowly to not kill the fish with a major pH change. So far, I ahve raised it to 7.8. I don't know that it will ever match the tap water, I just want to make sure to do it slowly before I ever remove as much as 5 gallons again. I know tons of people with fish tanks, they are not importing water. I've been to several stores, they all have plenty of long lived fish. The only problems I've encountered are due to my using stuff that idiots recommended. You cannot use Phosguard and Neutral regulator together



I'm not touching anymore buffers. Everyone anywhere else has said as long as you aren't changing the pH quickly, it is fine. Our water quality is fine. Not hard, not soft. Our water quality for the entire St. Louis area is among the highest rated in the country. We did water test at our house when I said it tasted funny--everything was normal--it was just the tap itself, we changed it. It is not hard or soft. The only potentially bad thing about our water is the pH. It shows at the highest level on the high pH test straight from tap. Independent water company test showed it at around 8.8, but I never got a decent color match. As mine was yellow/brown and the next color at 9 was green, I don't think it was quite 9. So it's alkaline. (our tap water contains no phosphates). Yes, I'm sure there are nitrates in the tap water, there is ammonia too, it's in most peoples unless you're using reverse osmosis. However, my tank is cycled and had low nitrates and Zero ammonia. Now, just high nitrates, which could be due to the frequent water changes and plant death. no One here had told me whether having high pH can hurt minnows, it is listed as fine for goldfish. Again, all the minnows in the store would have similar water.


So, I am changing small amounts of water twice per week. Not disturbing the gravel or plants except to clean every other week as usual. I need to remove the phosphate to prevent the algae.



My current real problem as everyone said that high alkalinity or phosphates shouldn't kill fish.



So, the fish are dying. The goldfish attacked each other. My nitrates are sky high, all other levels are normal. Yes, I meant 80 not 8, I'm sick of testing water and looking at tests. On any day, I give out 47 medications to 8 pets, so I have a lot of numbers in my head.
The first minnow died a month ago. It kept lilting towards the tail and side and eventually couldn't get up. 1 week later, minnow 2 started same symptoms. Then, a cory died suddenly with zero symptoms until it went insane. Started spinning(log roll) and couldnt get up, I euthanized it. No marks on body. This occured 10 minutes after a tiny water change with prime. I think maybe the goldfish rammed him.


So, now my sick minnow has ick. I found small spots tonight when I went to add some stresscoat. They were not there yesterday. They were not on the other two dead fish. They were only on the tail 2 hours ago and have already spread to the body. Has this been the problem the whole time with them? Stress due to high nitrates. I can't quarantine, I only had an extra bowl and goldfish 2 is in it to prevent her fro killing all other fish while attempting to kill the other goldfish.


The only symptom until now has been difficulty staying level, keeps drifting backwards to tail. one bruise like spot on abdomen found yesterday, it is almost healed. Now white spots--protuding tiny flecks. The only other disease I can find could be tape worm--it says they will look bloated, all my minnows are top heavy--is it the breed or the disease?


What do I buy to cure ick? Good brand. I know I'll have to remove the filter and phosguard. Will it hurt healthy fish? Can I use purigen at the same time--it lowers nitrates. I now know three problems and can't seem to fix any as people are fixated on our water. I'm not spending $100 week on water for our fish when we have perfect water here.
 
Delapool--younever suggested a buffer, you suggested a brand. Seachem makes buffers, none of them can be used with high phosphates or Phosguard. Maybe you said it later and I missed it, my computer hates this forum and it jumps while I read.



Again, I was only using neutral regulator because it was suggested as a good dechlorinator. It killed my taNK with phosphates. So, as I've stated numerous times, I need to change out the water more slowly because it had brought my water pH to 7.5 from somewhere around 9. So, instead of my weekly 25% water changes to remove phosphate and black algae, I need to do it slowly to not kill the fish with a major pH change. So far, I ahve raised it to 7.8. I don't know that it will ever match the tap water, I just want to make sure to do it slowly before I ever remove as much as 5 gallons again. I know tons of people with fish tanks, they are not importing water. I've been to several stores, they all have plenty of long lived fish. The only problems I've encountered are due to my using stuff that idiots recommended. You cannot use Phosguard and Neutral regulator together



I'm not touching anymore buffers. Everyone anywhere else has said as long as you aren't changing the pH quickly, it is fine. Our water quality is fine. Not hard, not soft. Our water quality for the entire St. Louis area is among the highest rated in the country. We did water test at our house when I said it tasted funny--everything was normal--it was just the tap itself, we changed it. It is not hard or soft. The only potentially bad thing about our water is the pH. It shows at the highest level on the high pH test straight from tap. Independent water company test showed it at around 8.8, but I never got a decent color match. As mine was yellow/brown and the next color at 9 was green, I don't think it was quite 9. So it's alkaline. (our tap water contains no phosphates). Yes, I'm sure there are nitrates in the tap water, there is ammonia too, it's in most peoples unless you're using reverse osmosis. However, my tank is cycled and had low nitrates and Zero ammonia. Now, just high nitrates, which could be due to the frequent water changes and plant death. no One here had told me whether having high pH can hurt minnows, it is listed as fine for goldfish. Again, all the minnows in the store would have similar water.


So, I am changing small amounts of water twice per week. Not disturbing the gravel or plants except to clean every other week as usual. I need to remove the phosphate to prevent the algae.



My current real problem as everyone said that high alkalinity or phosphates shouldn't kill fish.



So, the fish are dying. The goldfish attacked each other. My nitrates are sky high, all other levels are normal. Yes, I meant 80 not 8, I'm sick of testing water and looking at tests. On any day, I give out 47 medications to 8 pets, so I have a lot of numbers in my head.
The first minnow died a month ago. It kept lilting towards the tail and side and eventually couldn't get up. 1 week later, minnow 2 started same symptoms. Then, a cory died suddenly with zero symptoms until it went insane. Started spinning(log roll) and couldnt get up, I euthanized it. No marks on body. This occured 10 minutes after a tiny water change with prime. I think maybe the goldfish rammed him.


So, now my sick minnow has ick. I found small spots tonight when I went to add some stresscoat. They were not there yesterday. They were not on the other two dead fish. They were only on the tail 2 hours ago and have already spread to the body. Has this been the problem the whole time with them? Stress due to high nitrates. I can't quarantine, I only had an extra bowl and goldfish 2 is in it to prevent her fro killing all other fish while attempting to kill the other goldfish.


The only symptom until now has been difficulty staying level, keeps drifting backwards to tail. one bruise like spot on abdomen found yesterday, it is almost healed. Now white spots--protuding tiny flecks. The only other disease I can find could be tape worm--it says they will look bloated, all my minnows are top heavy--is it the breed or the disease?


What do I buy to cure ick? Good brand. I know I'll have to remove the filter and phosguard. Will it hurt healthy fish? Can I use purigen at the same time--it lowers nitrates. I now know three problems and can't seem to fix any as people are fixated on our water. I'm not spending $100 week on water for our fish when we have perfect water here.


Look, 20 gallons of water is too small of a volume for goldfish (however many you have/had) on top of the other fish you have in there.

If you had goldfish when your tank was thriving then you either had 1.) A functioning biofilter including nitrogen cycle 2. Lots of plants 3. Both of those. Once you’re on a consistent schedule with these things in place everything is usually fine. Fish stay happy plants are well fed.

It only takes a small change to upset this balance as Delapool mentioned. Now everything has spiralled out of control.

1) Forget trying to alter pH. This is NOT and NEVER was your problem.

2) REDUCE your stocking levels. This contributes to algae and fish ill health IF your plants are declining and/or your biofilter is damaged.

3) STOP changing so much water! It’s possible the fish are stressed due to a number of reasons contributing to ICH such as:
Build up of toxins
Large fluctuations in salt content (TDS)
Lack of oxygen

4) You need to STABILISE this tank. You can simply do this by.
Reducing stocking levels
Adding an airstone
Adding floating plants
Protecting your biofilter

5) STOP stressing over algae. People do more damage to their tanks trying to rid algae. Phosphate and nitrate alone are not the cause of algae they just facilitate its growth.

Lastly, water companies can do anything to your water during difficult seasons. They can raise levels of chlorine, add more phosphate etc. Water companies DO NOT make water for aquatic organisms, it is barely suitable for human consumption regardless of how you perceive its quality. It is not perfect, clean or pure and anyone who thinks otherwise is being naive. It CAN be used safely for most fish but do not be surprised if one day your fish respond negatively to a large water change using tap water. There’s now a section for PESTICIDES in your report. Think about it. This is why hobbyists of yesteryear had very few issues with algae and fish related illness. I know a guy who thought black brush algae was a plant he could add to his tank after years of keeping planted tanks.

Lastly, take a time out. Stop using products. ICH can be beaten by increasing the heat. Goldfish will not like this but you can eliminate ICH by doing so. Medicate goldfish in a separate container away from the main tank if you really want to medicate. Treat the rest of the fish by turning the temp up to 30 degrees C. The airstone will help keep oxygen levels high as warm water will hold less Oxygen.
 
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