Pimafix Dosing Question

[Dale_I]

First, two shouts of hoorah for QT!

Picked up 3 Boesemani and 2 Turquoise Rainbow three weeks ago to round out the schools in the main tank. Got them in the 20L QT and one died very quickly. I waited a week to make sure it wasn't something in the batch or in the tank and the other four seemed to be fine.

I took the one that didn't make it back and LFS replaced him. 10 days later I see what I thought was a bottom lip injury on the replacement fish. Over the last couple days I noticed it go away, then come back again, and now it looks like a-typical columnaris. This morning, three of the five Rainbows have evidence of it. I also added two Oto's last week for transfer to the main tank, which already has two.

Water parameters: 0 ammonia, 0 to 0.25 nitrite, and 40 nitrate, but this is my tank maintenance day. So, I wasn't surprised to see slightly high nitrate, but the nitrite did concern me. It wasn't clearly on the first color of the chart, but wasn't 0 either. Tank completed cycling 4 weeks ago and was cycled for one week before I added the fish. Fluval U3 filtration, temp 78.5 F +/- 0.3 F.

I did a 60% PWC, added 1.5 teaspoon of salt per 5 gallon, and dosed with Pimafix. The Pimafix instructions say 5 ml per 10 Gal, so I put in 10 ml.

Instructions say to dose 10 ml for 7 consecutive days. However, I'll be pulling water samples every day to keep the water in crystal condition. I don't want to see any nitrites (or even the hint of them) or any nitrates in excess of 20 during the treatment.

Here's the question... Since the Pimafix will be increasing in strength as the days continue, if I have to do a PWC during treatment, would I dose the Pimafix at the concentration of the day? Or, would I dose the Pimafix at the 5 ml per 10 Gal that the instructions call for?

I'm not sure if the Pimafix is reducing strength over time, which is why you re-dose every day. Or, if we are increasing the strength of the Pimafix slowly over the course of a week to prevent water condition shock.

For example: 50% PWC on day 3 I would add 5 ml for the 50% that I left in, then 3 (for the third day) x 5 ml for the replaced water.

Any comments are appreciated, because I fully expect a PWC sometime mid next week.

 

[mfdrookie516]

I treated columnaris with salt, lowering temp 6 degrees, and adding melafix and pimafix after each water change. I've since come to the conclusion that the salt and temp were what cured it, as melafix and pimafix have questionable effectiveness.

 

[foster53]

The affliction you see on the bottom lip of the rainbow is pretty common in bows. If you do a small water change daily for several days it should take care of the problem. I have this happen sometimes when I have bows shipped to me. Rainbows need pristine water conditions to prosper, and show their best color. A WC of 50-75% per week will keep them in great shape. They are a little more work than most fish, but well worth it. Nothing like a few males showing the breeding stripe on their forehead and nose when showing off for the girls,or sparing with each other! If the daily WC's don't do the trick, then could be a mild fungal infection. If you see erosion on the lips starting then treatment with anti-fungal meds is needed.

 

[Ickletas]

My kutubus showed what I thought was fungus on their lower lip. After some interwebbing and a chat with the breeder I discovered that it was just from a bit of scrapping. Take care of your water and it should all be fine. As had been said, it is definatly all worth it when you see that amazing gold stripe from nose to dorsal on display for all the ladies (and gents lol) to see.

 

[Dale_I]

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate it.

It has now been three days since the first Pimafix treatment and I've done daily parameter testing with 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5 to 10 ppm nitrate. Not surprising because my tap water contains 5 ppm nitrate. The two fish that seemed to contract it are now looking good and the original one that I diagnosed with it is doing better, but still visible on both upper and lower lips.

I have read that Pimafix and Melafix have questionable effectiveness, but I think it is still an arguable point. Not based on experience, but I read two lab studies and both negated the anti-bacterial claims and then extolled the healing virtues of them both. As far as I'm concerned, as long as they help the healing process and quicken the cycle... that's all good. One study even specifically listed that they were amazed at how fast the fish healed.

No harm to the BB, faster sick cycle, and better healing is enough for me to say there's no down side and a lab tested upside, even though the anti-bacterial claims are false. The one qualifier is the kH though. Using Melafix I guess it is very important to have kH reading no less than 50. I don't test kH, so I will pick up something if I have to go that route.

I do know that this is common in Rainbows. I actually wasn't too worried when I originally saw it because I didn't think it was actual columnaris until the other two showed symptoms and the original fish got worse. I do know it is important to catch it quickly, so I'm glad I went ahead and turned the lights off, dosed the tank, stopped feeding, and (hopefully) things will progress in the same direction over the next 4 days.

I have three Boesemani and a couple Turquoise in my main tank and they are thriving right now. I agree, they are incredible when they are healthy and happy. Tons of color. The Turquoise actually change from blue to an iridescent green, which is phenomenal.

Anyway, my current plans are to keep up with the Pimafix for the next 4 days. If all isn't well, or if I see it coming back, I'll progress to use Melafix with the Pimafix for a week. During the double dose period if I see a negative affect or if it doesn't clear after a week, I'll try an actual bacterial medication. From what I've read, API Furan-2 seems to be the med of choice. But, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

What about the fish that are not showing signs? The two Turquoise and two Otocinclus are not symptomatic. Is columnaris something that can be dormant? Or, is it always symptomatic?

I'm just very thankful for this forum. Without you all, I wouldn't have set up a QT and this would be much more concerning to me. Thank you all!!!

 

[Dale_I]

I'm going to update this for future source material:

eco23 linked me to an excellent article:
Columnaris (Flexibacteria); Aquarium/Pond Treatment, Prevention; Fungus, Saprolegnia

In it, the author clears up a lot of misconceptions I had and explains why many sites are misguided in their recommendations for remedies of Columnaris.

As mfdrookie516 previously stated, adding salt and lowering the tank temperature 75 degrees and under is key to recovering from a mild condition. Catching it early and treating for it quickly is important to be able to recover without using antibiotic medication.

Columnaris is a gram negative bacteria. While Pimafix can help in mild conditions if caught early, which is probably why my current Pimafix regimen helped the two mildly affected fish, Melafix is a gram positive medication and will have no affect on the Columnaris. Maracyn (Erythromycin) is another gram positive medication often suggested for Columnaris, but it will not affectively treat it either.

The suggestion is to use a combination of Furan-2 and Kanaplex (Kanamycin), which used to be sold under the product name of Spectrogram, but is no longer available.

I haven't had any luck sourcing Kanaplex locally (Kanaplex is a Seachem product), but Furan-2 is sold by most LFS that carry API products.

Since the originally diagnosed fish is still affected, my new course of action will be to start a Furan 2 treatment, which will take 4 days total. If things aren't cleared by then, I should have the Kanaplex by next week. The Furan 2 directions say you can repeat the 4 dose cycle a second time and I'll repeat it once I can combine it with the Kanaplex.

I hope this helps the next person who might have this issue...

 

[Matt68005]

there are plenty of anti-biotics that treat gram neg bacteria like columnaris bact. lowering temp and not feeding and adding salt does help, but here are some meds to try that will work, IF it is columnaris=
Minocycline-Maracyn-2
Tetracycline (maybe)
Triple-Sulfa
Binox (liquid)
Ampicillin
Hope this helps guys, you can get these at kensfish.com

 

[Dale_I]

According to the article, Tetracyclines are generically a gram postive med and are largely ineffective. The one he suggests using in that family of meds is the Minocycline, which is a gram negative and Maracyn-2 contains it. However, Maracyn, which is Eythromycin, is NOT recommended. More than slightly confusing because of the names.

On the down side, I'm starting to lose fish. Last night I pulled a snail that hadn't moved in a day or two and gave him a sniff. Yep... he/she is gone. Today I was going to run down and get the Furan 2 and noticed the Boesemani over in the corner upside down and not moving. Yep, a goner as well.

Hope this gets under control quickly...

 

[Matt68005]

look here if you dont believe me most of these state they work for "most gram-positive and many gran-negative." under medications, and binox and ampicillin are both gram neg. Triple sulfa is also listed for "some gram neg including mouth fungus and tail rot" trust me...
kensfish.com

 

[Dale_I]

No reason to get amped up. I'm not saying I didn't believe you. I'm merely stating the information as was written in the article.

I tend to do a lot of research and I'll generally give more weight to an article written in a scientific format, where they will cite the material and research, and have no reason for indicating preference on a course of action other than the health of the fish.

When I deal with any company or business I tend to listen, but will then verify their statements independently. I would only expect the same for what I say, which is why I'm citing my source and allowing anyone to research it for themselves.

I did visit Kensfish.com and did not find anything other than the company's common explanation of what their medication is supposed to be used for.

In addition, I'm not interested at all in wide spectrum analysis of generic gram positive or negative treatments. I'm interested in saving my fish, which are suffering from a specific disease and dying. Unless I treat for the specific bacteria, I'm not very interested in what else the medication is good for.

What I'm trying to determine is the best course of action, not what might work. Given the choice between a medication that can be used for "most gram-positive and many gram-negative", and one that is specifically effective for columnaris... I'll take the one for columnaris and save the fish.

The problem I am finding on many sites, which I see others having frustrations with as well, is the tremendous amount of information that opposes each other. One site says this stuff and another says no that doesn't work. These sites say you have to do it this way, and those sites say that if you do it that way it won't work. Compound that with some companies whose only interest is selling things, and it is easy to get confused.

My fish are at the stage that I'm at risk of losing all of them. Thank God that I have them in a QT and my main tank is safe, but I still have a good $80 to $100 of fish I was trying to move into the main tank. I was literally days away when a new fish entered quarantine and now I'm out of time to try this or that.

I've started a course of Furan 2 and ordered some Kanaplex (Kanamycin) and paid for expedited shipping. Kanamycin is the only medication which will treat internal organ damage, and currently one Boesemani looks as if his gills are infected, which can indicate a more advanced stage of infection.

The combination of Furan 2 and Kanaplex used to be called Spectrogram and has proved to be very effective at clearing this problem in a short period of time. And, it has an additional benefit of NOT affecting the beneficial bacteria in the bio filter. All good things as far as I'm concerned.

I think if you take the time to read through the article and research his source material, he has written a very thorough and balanced informative article. He even delves into other similar fungal pathogens that display similarly symptomatically. The last third of his writing is about the most commonly mistaken fungus and how to treat it. Fortunately, Furan 2 is also very effective at curing this, which is another reason why I used it.

Cheer up . I think if you re-read my post, I agreed with you more than disagreed. I only questioned one item, the Tetracycline, and you even noted "maybe" next to that one.

 

[Rokuzachi]

Don't have any advice to offer but I wish you good luck and thanks for all the info. I'm sure I'll run into this down the road. I never realized there were so many misconceptions about this particular ailment.