Pseudotropheus demasoni in a community?

[DeFeKt]

hi guys,

thought i'd kick this forum off with an experience question..
anyone ever kept Pseudotropheus demasoni in a community mbuna setup?
i have my eye on a few but i've heard they are really aggressive, but with my amount of fish I have no particular aggresion, so i'm sure they will learn..

any thoughts?

Matty

 

[TCTFish]

How big is the tank and how many fish are in there; what kind and what size are they? Can you see available territory or can you expand new territory for these fish? Do you have a means of separating these fish if problems with aggression arise? Do you have enough females to disperse aggressive attention from males?

Answers to these questions will tell you if you should even try. If the tank has little space available and/or too many males can cause problems with a new introduction. Juveniles and submissive males are less to worry about than if obtaining adults, but may instill problems later as they mature and challenge the current dominate fish. FYI, I've heard it's very common for blue mature males attacking other blue mature males of any species. They see blue and right away think they are seeing a rival...whether the other blue fish actually is or not.

but with my amount of fish I have no particular aggresion, so i'm sure they will learn..

Learn what??? LOL. Fish do not cater to what we want and hope of them. We must cater to their demands. I think African cichlids especially have well proven this...LOL. Dontcha just love fish??? You can't really teach them to behave. They are mostly restricted to instinctual impulses. Though they do learn well how to avoid a net...LOL.

But on a more serious note...when deciding on a new African in an established African community, space and sex ratio plays an important part of successful introduction. Now being the dems are a bit more aggressive than others, placing them after the others are established is a good first step. But anything lesser aggressive than they are to go in after they're established would be in danger. Especially another male. If you do have the room, you could always use danios of appropriate size as dithers upon introducing new Africans.

 

[DeFeKt]

this is irrellivant but..tank is 100gal,
I have available territory and have means to/will be creating more by downsizing colonies, adding extra rockwork, and in the near future plan to upgrade to the vicinty of 240gallons.
how many fish, to many, hence the above statement, add the fact the 'extra' males are being moved as they mature.

tankmates, not so much a mbuna community but.....
(alot are juvis)
Astatotilapia latifasciata
Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos
Labidiochromis caeruleus
Pseudotropheus acei 'msuli'
Cynotilapia afra ' cobwe'
Dimidiochromis compressiceps juvi's

I've heard it's very common for blue mature males attacking other blue mature males of any species. They see blue and right away think they are seeing a rival...whether the other blue fish actually is or not.

This is more the information I was after, I might give it a miss then, the adult maingano may well be challenged for superiority, as well as the cobwe once they reach maturity.

Fish do not cater to what we want and hope of them. We must cater to their demands. I think African cichlids especially have well proven this...LOL.

I'd have to disagree with aspects of this, i've noticed nothing more then adaptation from all my colonies and others. As you can see by my current stocking list. And yes I am aware of anything anyone may like to tell me about my current list and when they reach maturity, tank size etc etc. I have plans to remedy that.

You can't really teach them to behave. They are mostly restricted to instinctual impulses. Though they do learn well how to avoid a net...

I'm not sure how serious you are about this but...they don't learn to behave but they do learn to avoid a net? isn't that a behaviour pattern? I see what you are saying, but I think they are smarter then what you are giving them credit for. To give an example...
A couple days ago a fry floater got caught under a filter port and a few maingano fry escaped, now the dimis had a field day obviously they thought it was christmas, whereas the maingano male somehow developed a 'mothering' characteristic and started protecting the 2cm + fry. and keeping the dimis away and rounding them up. I've never seen this before, I thought it was amazing for something that would 'normally' make these fry a snack would take the initiative to protect them.

In all due respect, as much as i take in your opinion and advice, I am aware of the questions I need to ask myself in this situation. My question was more focused on peoples experience with them in their own communities, whatever they may be. sorry if I gave the opposite impression, but like you said the aggressive attraction to similar colours is a good point, i'd overlooked this tendancy and now appreciate the heads-up.

Thanks

M.

anyone else?

 

[kay-bee19]

I've got a single adult male pseudotropheus demasoni my 125-gal with about 30 other mbuna.

Demasoni are well-suited to multi-species mbuna tanks. They're smaller than most mbuna but are well equipped to fend for themselves. Things to be aware of:

- they are highly conspecific aggressive so I wouldn't add more than one unless you were going to add a dozen or more.

- they usually leave other mbuna alone, but in the absence of other demasoni, they may treat similar looking fish as other demasoni. Because of either similar coloration or similar stripe pattern, your m. cyaneorhabdos and zebra obliquidens might incite an aggression response from a demasoni. Your afra is highly likely to be challenged.

My demasoni will chase my yellow top mbamba's, and occasionally my female BB zebra chilumbas (it used to chase my male zebra chilumba's [fish in my avatar] until they surpassed him in size and dominance). But so far the intensity of aggression my demasoni displays towards other striped mbuna is no where near the level at which it exacted towards other demasoni. He totally ignores 'blue' mbuna like socolofi or m. callainos (cobalt zebra).

Demasoni are great fish. I have about two dozen of them in a different tank.

***edit***

Just saw a post of yours in a different thread (regarding black background) in which you mention the quantity of mbuna you have. A sole demasoni should work in your current set up based on that stock. My comments above were made under the assumption you had one of each species.

 

[TCTFish]

Sounds like your set up will house the demasonis nicely. I ask questions like that so proper advice can be given according to the answers. It's a way to 'see' the tank without actually viewing it.

Here's some important information about the Dimidiochromis compressiceps. This is a red flag warning and may prompt you to make some arrangements to protect your other fish from this ruthless predator. A beautiful fish by all means, but should not reside with the fish you have.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/d_compressiceps.php

I do give a lot of credit for the cleverness African cichlids display...especially Tanganyikans. It was more less a joke about how common it is to try and get fish to do what you want them to do, but fish have a way of changing that, especially cichlids. LOL. Intelligence and instinct, however, I do view as very different from each other.

The Dimidiochromis compressiceps, for example, may be clever in its strategies to ambush prey, but restricted to its instincts and lacks the ability to learn not to ambush your other fish. The aquarist has to cater to these behaviors because these fish aren't going to learn not to prey on tank mates. That's all I really meant by what I had stated.

JFYI, Another example of instinctual behavior are body functions like respiration, blood flow, and sleep. These behaviors are automatic. At some point, an animal is going to sleep whether it found food or not using whatever stratagy the animal has learned along the way of experience. It continues to breathe; the heart continues to beat and the body continues to eliminate waste so long as there is active protein and water replenishment.

In all due respect, as much as i take in your opinion and advice, I am aware of the questions I need to ask myself in this situation. My question was more focused on peoples experience with them in their own communities,

Again, asking you questions gave me a view of the tank so that I could give appropriate information. I don't see where the insult came in and the answers to such questions did give you more of the type of info. you are looking for. If I didn't ask, would you have listed that you have Dimidiochromis compressiceps? Not so irrelevant now is it???

 

[DeFeKt]

Don't get me wrong, no insults taken or intended for that matter.

anyone ever kept Pseudotropheus demasoni in a community mbuna setup?

Perhaps I worded it wrong, sorry, I am asking for referrences to peoples past and present experience and setups, I am not asking for advice or opinions. so in that sense, yes it is still irrelivant.

On a side note: I am aware of the dimi comps behaviour and characteristics, I am also in a position to see these in several experienced aquarists malawi setups co-existing and breeding along side of dwarf mbuna with minimal predatory behaviour. By this I mean fry are most likely a snack, but adult interaction is pleasant and successfull provided they are well fed and cared for.. Will this work for me? maybe, maybe not, I have means of counteracting if it starts to turn sour and for the record they will have their own tank for breeding purposes once they mature and start showing.

So anyway, getting back to the original topic, thanks for the advice and concern, I have decided against the demasoni until further arrangements can be made for a few of the males, particularly the colouring cobwe, to be rehoused.

cheers

Matthew

 

[audiophile42]

I've got 1 (one) demasoni in my 50gal with other mbuna. From my experience, and what I've heard from others, having a single demasoni won't be much of a problem. Occasionally, mine will harrass my melanochromis johanni for a bit, but it is an African tank. In fact, my demasoni isn't even the most aggressive fish in the tank, it's much more laid back than several others.

 

[TCTFish]

i have my eye on a few but i've heard they are really aggressive, but with my amount of fish I have no particular aggresion, so i'm sure they will learn..

any thoughts?

That's what I was responding to. Anyhoo...

I have a lot of experience with a lot of different fish in an overabundant variety of senerios. I like to have a mental picture of someones tank before comparing my experience with what they might expect in theirs. Tank size and species do make a difference in the reponses you might get.

I still don't see the irrelavance of my questions, but whatever.

I haven't really seen any over aggressive behavior from demansoni unless a mature male of a similar species or color is introduced into his territory. I have seen differences in behavior between fish by the order in which they are introduced as well as what level of maturity the introduced fish are at. Lesser aggressives in first and you might get away with some otherwise incompatable tank mates. Especially if the newly introduced fish is somewhat of a juvenile. Juveniles seem to be less of a threat because they can't breed yet and so there's less competition for mates. It seems to work most of the time, though not bullet proof as there will always be exceptional species and individuals.