Refugiums, DSBs, Algal Scrubbers: Water Changes No More?

[BillD]

Do you remember the name of the company that is doing the designing and what are they designing closed systems or a software that will calculate what will be the end result of the chaos theory equilibrium?[/quote]

Don't remember the name of the company. One of their first projects was a closed system that housed a hummingbird. the problem, was the cost $16,000.00. Their newer designs were such that they were affordable. He showed us one that was built in a new house that included a wack of plants and a water feature. Six weeks after it was installed (brand new hose) all new house odors were gone ( even the carpet smell.) Another example was in the corporate office of a company. It was a 32'x 32' living wall. It was bsaically a frame wall covered with mineral wool, and full of plants and assorted wildlife, including lizards. Water was tricled through the mineral wool from the top, sort of hydrponic fashion. The plants purified the air in the facility.

 

[mumrah]

while the topic is chaos and equilibrium, i thought i'd share something interesting i was thinking of the other day.

In math, any system of period functions will eventually reach a stable equilibrium, or escape to infinity. I think biological systems are quite similar to this. In an aquarium, if you have a closed system (no-tech) it will either result in a balance between the plants, fish, and bacteria (and be really nice looking), or result in one of them dying or thriving and subsequently causing all of them to die (except for things that only need light, like algea).

Now that i've said this, i'm not sure where i was going with it to being with. Oh right. Mother nature does a really nice job of keeping this balance on earth, but she has a much bigger canvas to work with. The smaller you make a system, the less likely you are to reach a stable equilibrium. This, i think, is why low-tech ponds are much easier to maintain than low-tech aquariums (at least in my experience).

Regardless, i'm excited there are some ppl who are interested in this branch of aquaria. I just finished constructing a 7g sump (in a 10g tank) for my 55g community tank and i'm very intrested in progress in this area.


David

 

[BillD]

I think some research might be in order, to avoid breaking ground that has already been broken. That is one of the nice things about this hobby, it is ever evolving, and you can become as invoved as you desire. The quest for knowledge is as importanat as the knowledge itself, in my view. sometimes, thinking outside the box is the way to go. There are lots of "truths" that have been discredited over the years, as new knowledge displaced old.

 

[TankGirl]

I do water changes on my 10gal low-tech, and I should not say it is doomed but I do think setups like this will acidify and lose stability over time, but it takes a while. I don't subscribe to a plan with this tank, in that I am not following guidelines someone has set, so I am allowed to do whatever the heck I want, lol!

I was dosing ferts in the very beginning, since I get thread algae choking everything out if I don't (Flourish Excel) but then I was worried I was stirring up accumulated ammonia that may rest just above the substrate, without a current to carry it around and feed it to the bacteria - does that make sense? Now I am increasing the water changes just a bit and have started dosing the Excel again, and will see what happens. These fish are extremely tough but I have not seen any change in morbidity in this tank since I unplugged it - they die of old age, are moved or are sold, and I have no shortage of babies in there.

I have an old thread about this tank somewhere so I'll have to resurrect it and update - I don't want to tie up this thread.

 

[czcz]

I have an unplugged (though keep heater and have Hagen kit) 10g tank, too, with no losses. TG's is much prettier, though Here's the natural tank thread: http://aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=43140

Its neat one can have the same end with such different means in this hobby.

 

[andywg]

Sorry it took a while to get back but I think that algae turf scrubbers could work extremely well. They are already well used (of a fashion) in reef setups.

In a reef setup one would use an algae like Caluerpa (sp?) in order to suck up some of the nutrients (like phosphate and the like) that are far more problematic than in FW. This is often augmented by fertilising the refugium or sump with a mineral rich mud to encourage growth.

The Great Barrier Reef Aquarium Aquarium (in Townsville Australia) is a 4 million litre reef system where they are trialling turf algae. They have found that 1000 micron mesh allows for the best growth/cleaning and utilise a tipping bucket system to increase gas exchange and nutrient takeup in the ensuing turbulence.

They have found that shallow trays work better (somewhat expected due to the increased area for gas exchange).

An important point I have seen is the need for "grazing" the system from time to time (at Townsville they do this every 5 - 14 days) to prevent further organisms growing in the scrubber that may feed off the algae and start to dump these nutrients back into the water. This is done by removing the tray and scraping the algae off with a flat perspex sheet (so as not to remove all the algae).

It was found after the tests at Townsville that while most conventional methods (mechanical and biological) of filtration leave nutrient levels in the order of parts per million, algae scrubbers render them in the parts per billion.

As an added boost it is thought that all the harvested algae could be used in fuel generation of one sort or another.

My conclusion on this is that algae scrubbers appear to work fantastically, and assuming you can gain the right algae to seed a freshwater tank they should convert over pretty well. The big problems I have are somewhat obvious:

1 what effect will having such an effective nutrient remover and oxygenator have on a planted tank? The obvious answer is not good for the flora. However in a fish only system (particularly one with large messy predatory fish) it could be a fantastic thing. Especially if teemed up with a sump and fluidised sand bed filtration system.

2 How effective is the algae itself. Remember that in a reef system the liverock can complete the nitrogen cycle (ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen gas) so there would not have been such a high concentration of nitrogen compounds. However if coupled as mentioned above it should perform admirably.

3 Is there a risk from algae going "sexual". In reefs the common used caleurpa sp again?) can become sexually active. I forget how but this can cause an entire tank to crash and wreak some amazing devastation.

4 What are the lighting requirements? Would it be a 24hr lighting (like reef fuges?)

My final thought is then that this is a truly exciting prospect if maybe a little unsuited to planted tanks. It could help reduce the need for water changes to a reef level (of 10% per month) instead of the frequency currently necessary in FW. Certainly something I will keep my eye out for in the future for more information on its implications for FW.

 

[greenmaji]

andywg........
HAH! caught you keeping secrets...ROFL J/K...

Im not so sure about using a fluidised sand bed filtration system with an algae scrubber for a FW fish only system.. I reilize that from what other sorces that nitrate needs to be converted by the micro algae to be utilized...
http://www.esr.pdx.edu/pub/biology/limnology/limn-13.htm
scroll down and look for the title: Assimilation of fixed nitrogen
but if the scrubber is sized correctly it should never see any NO3 and if it does it can still utilize all of the NO3..
Looks like I had been keeping secrets as well.. 8O 8O LOL..

 

[czcz]

I reilize that from what other sorces that nitrate needs to be converted by the micro algae to be utilized...

This is true of higher-order plants as well. Check out Diana Walstad's article on plants as biological filters, a strong case for the "natural/no-tech" tank: http://www.aquabotanic.com/plants_and_biological_filtration.htm

 

[greenmaji]

czcz..
You have been keeping secrets as well!!! I just cant belive it!!! J/K
I actually had no idea that higher-order plants perfered to uptake ammonia.. this is news to me!!! great info. czcz!!

 

[czcz]

If you like that you'll love her book, btw Its great -- like a university text too good to sell back.

 

[TankGirl]

Plants will glady uptake ammonia (maybe it was another thread that this was discussed - I can't remember) and nitrite as well as nitrate, and that is why you can run a "silent" cycle if you get your plants thriving prior to adding fish. Usually this requires a tank with medium to high light and CO2 injection, as well as a nutrient rich substrate, but I have done it and you never really see the cycle at all.

A healthy tank can almost be guaranteed in the presence of healthy plants.

 

[andywg]

I knew plants would take up ammonia and nitrite but never realised it preferred ammonia.

That's a fantastic site Green. When I'm not stealing work time I'll look at it in more depth

I may try and do an algae scrubber on a tank before long. The biggest problem would be devising a mini bucket system to create the turbulence (and keeping it as quiet as possible).

I must admit a lot of that knowledge is plaguerised from the web in the form of this site:

http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/dynamic-levy.html

and also from my research into reef aquaria (I'm determined to know almost everything before I start on them).

However I would love to be able to find out the answers to my points at the end. Especially about the live-rock's influence on the system (If only there were something like that in FW)

 

[greenmaji]

andywg.......
..a bit off topic maybe.. liverock in the marine aquarium is a bio-filter like ceramic rings in a fluval as an example, cultured gravel does the same thing in FW throw in some snails and you have about the same thing... the liverock would just be a extra filter of sorts and since plants prefer ammonia this would not be a good thing in the FW system in my opinion..
everyone gets ideas or learns something from thekrib.com if they have gone there and read anything for a extended period of time so its ok...
thekrib contributors got the ideas of of Dr. Walter H. Adey... there are books and scientific journal papers on the subject (the book is Dynamic Aquaria, Building Living Ecosystems)...
Amazon.com sells it (changed the link to have it refered by AA!!! )
the dump bucket design is just to keep plenty of surface aggitation.. it could be a flow through design with plenty of airation in the system it would do the same job.. not so sure it would do the same quality of job though.. depends on how hard it is to outgass the algae's consumption of carbon.. I know that algae needs less carbon then most plants so I would think it wouldnt need as much personally.. maybe I can track down a pic I saw on a different forum of a algae scrubber in use on a FW system.. he had spraybars and such going to the buckets (pendent lights) interesting pics.. Ill go look..
I hope your endeavor is a Great Success!!

 

[andywg]

Staying ever so slighlty parallel to the topic...

I know that LR is like a biological filter (except it can convert nitrates to nitrogen gas) but what I meant was that in the large tank they were trialling the alge scrubber would have been augmented by a substantial amount of liverock. I just wondering what size would be necessary if you ised an algae scrubber and an algae scrubber alone.

Spray bars could work well (if somewhat noisely). I suppose you could utilise it into a sump system and actually have the downpipe from the sump run over a or some trays in place of what could usually be a wet/dry trickle tower.

I wonder how much (if any) mechanical filtration would be necessary. Oooh I wanna build one NOW!

I'm still trying to build my scientific knowledge. Currently attempting to plow my way through a couple of degree level Ichthyology books which throw up some surprising (for me anyway) facts, such as how closely related catfish and black ghost knives are (mostly through the eel like catfish). And obviously from sites like this

 

[greenmaji]

From what I have read over at reef central.. yea. Im a FW hobbiest but the info about this stuff is in the reef hobby..LOL. the guys running scrubbers with a skimmer end up not having to empty there cup after a while!!! 8O 8O 8O The turf seems to be a great mechanical filter even enough to stop a PS from operating..
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79463
Is the "algae scrubbers as primary filtration thread" over at RC but I have only scrached the surface as far as reading it is concerned... Ive only started reading that thread..
This makes me think about Discus and algae scrubbers as the primary filtration.. would it remove the mucus??? I wish I had that answer!!!!!!

I was unaware that LR was like a DSB by the way.... I like the scrubber better then both methods by the way... but LR is really not an option CellPore used to make huge piece of there product that you would use in the sump or in the tank that would come close to LR.. A big chunk of porus glass.. how weird did those things look..VERY! LOL

 

[greenmaji]

The picture of the scrubber.. the user (ashdavid) is on Aquaria Central... and the tank this thing filters is a FW 1850 gallon tank! 8O
http://aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=756&mode=search

 

[andywg]

Fantastic site. I'm now trying to source "Dynamic Aquaria, Building Living Ecosystems" for cheaper than £40 (why do reference books have to cost so much? )

That reef central thread is very interesting. I am trying to find the original one (and think I won't get a lot of work done today as a result...

Green, it's always a pleasure. One quick Q. Are you implying in your post that DSB can work in FW? If so I would be interested in that as well.

 

[greenmaji]

Fantastic site. I'm now trying to source "Dynamic Aquaria, Building Living Ecosystems" for cheaper than £40 (why do reference books have to cost so much? )

LOL.. Sorry about that.. but its the only book on the subject that I know of.. maybe if you have a college library you can search for academic journal articles written by the authors?...

Green, it's always a pleasure. One quick Q. Are you implying in your post that DSB can work in FW? If so I would be interested in that as well.

That would depend.. in a salt water system the DSB works because the critters that live in it only burrow and airate the sand so deep.. if they airated all of the sand it wouldnt work.. The snails in FW would airaite the sand but I dont know if they would do a similar job.. I dont know if they would do too good of a job airating the sand.. :?

 

[ashdavid]

For more info on ATS, I have posted in the DIY forum.

 

[greenmaji]

Hopefully, with a little help I will be doing some shopping to design and build a DIY ATS.. algae scrubber.. looking to keep discus soon.. A RO/DI might be in my future as well
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=56247