Refugiums, DSBs, Algal Scrubbers: Water Changes No More?

[urville]

Is there such a thing?
if your not familiar a salt refugium isa box filter with live sand, live rock, and tons of macro algae which feeds of nitrates. helping make a system more natural and free of water changes etc. too osme extent, this other board i'm on they are on the quest to eliminate water changes or at least minimize only fr the benefit of the closest thing to a natural system with out human intervention. anyway, i was reading on the diatom algae that tends to feed off excess nitrates and was wondering could you make a fresh refugium with lots of surface area and low light seeded with diatoms and the put a diatom filter between the inlet into the tank and acheive the same results? i was just wondering the opinions of whether you thnk it will work? I may try it and give the definitive answer.

 

[TankGirl]

Here is a link to an EXTREMELY difficult to navigate site but their whole thing is using "algae scrubbers" as the filter for FW and SW tanks alike. I am very interested in anyone who has experience with this kind of thing, but I have had a hard time getting specific scientific info from this site about the process.

http://www.eztank.com/

 

[urville]

alright heres the deal people. this is my theory and opinion so no flames please.
i dont beleive in canisters too much water not enough air in the bio-media, i just cant see it being as efficient. and PW's are almost always HOB and ugly, plus i'm searching for the holy grail of the self perpetuating system.

i posted awhile ago about the nitrogen cycle and have learned some new things. DE-nitrification IS possible with other than plants in theory.
it is my contention to build a wet/dry filter and refugium utilizing a Deep Sand Bed or DSB and MTS. also possibly heavily planting the tank or refugium. DE-nitrification indeed DOES happen in anaerobis beds turining nitrates to nitrogen which is freely discharged. this IS a fact check out google and look for university papers, and any good saltwater sites.

if the above works as planned, may have to do some configuring, then water changes could be bypassed and trace element dosing could be the alternative. this would require sand in the tank. and the refugium of course.
i belive i can create a system that will make water changes unessacary or only for trace elemnts although you could easily dose. this would also remove all my cumbersome and space taking equipment to the sump/refugium/wet/dry. iw ill be posting the findings regularly here. this includes the plans for the wet/dry/refugium which will be DIY.
oh boy oh boy oh boy

 

[krap101]

i understood most of the thingy. but only thing i didnt is wuts a refrigium?

 

[urville]

well in saltwater they found that buy building. for example. a sump, only filling it with live sand, live rock, and macro algae it significantly reduced the need for water changes by eliminating nitrates, of course this isnt its only purpose it can serve many others. it's essentially a LIVE filter. that removes nitrates as well as helping the rest of the nitrifyng process. so it's a DE-nitrifier as well

 

[urville]

WHOA tankgirl i'm like 100 miles from these people in your link i thin i may go dwn and see this for myself!!!

 

[TankGirl]

Please do! I am really curious as to why the seem to be keeping their methods a secret - usually in this hobby folks share what they know pretty freely, but I suppose they just want you to spend the $$ and let them get you set up.

I know what you describe is possible, and in fact a very knowledgeable, nay, elite, fishkeeper I know hardly ever does water changes in his ARLC because he swears his rocks and sand take care of it nitrate. It is a controversial topic but I love those, and if there are other ways of doing things then I'm all for it!

I'd love to see this concept kept open and I hope other super scientific types will respond with their two cents.

 

[urville]

well as to SW:
you cant beat refugiums, they are honestly the best filter there is and are often utilized by nano-reefers. refugiums have thier own light systems that operate either in intervals or when the main units lights are off as to create a never not perfect time in the water as it were.
but algal scrubbers are somewhat different.

an algal turf scrubber is a box, with intake and output like a canister or wet/dry filter. most any lighting can be used, but it is reccomended to use a high photosynthesis range or "dennerle" range of light. this box is encased in a reflective box that stops light escaping and magnifies the exsisiting lighting in the scrubber. most people see algae over night. i have seen reports in SW that nitrates are almost eliminated completely and this widely depends on the size, too big is a rule of thumb. it's reported they can replace wet/drys but i think i may use it in conjunction with a wet/dry i may also use DSB but have since negated the use of MTS as the whole point of a DSB is the anaerobic areas that actually convert the NITRATES to Nitrogen. the problems here are this.

a wet/dry depeletes O2 and creates CO2, while the scrubber does exactly the opposite. not sure what my thinking or confg should be? should i negate the algal or the DSB? does DSB even work in freshwater, i know wet/dries do and algal scrubbers do, in fact even protein skimmers work, i've seen this at local lakes in action in nature.

thats all these guys at EZTANK.COM (PIC BELOW) are selling algal scrubbers, with included lights, and reflective cases.
many reefers have encountered that the use of an algal scrubber as the only filter disallows stony corals from growing for some unknown reason. there is currently LITTLE or NO info on algal scrubing, DSBs & reugiums in freshwater use. this is because freshwater tends to be deemed of little interest. while marine is on the rise and all the research and whatnot goes there, but i shall diligently continue looking.
i have found an article by Elmer A. Guerri entitled "algal scrubber technology comes of age for the freshwater aquarium" from the 99 "American Current" by NANFA.org and am aiting for it to arrive i shall summarize it here when it arrives.

any ideas, info, opinions?

 

[TankGirl]

Hold on, wet dry depletes O2 and increases CO2? Can you explain?

As for protein skimmers in FW, you don't have the surface tension that you have in a SW setup, and it is SO much easier just to do a water change. With SW the water itself is expensive, so it makes sense to go this route, with multiple hidden "zones" for various purposes behind the scenes of your display. In FW setups it is so simple, cheap and easy to do a water change that research into alternative filtration methods employing refugium type ancillary setups are not popular.

 

[urville]

oh man.. i looked for the link again, and will look more tomorrow, getting tired.

but yeah, the discussion and its in the articles over at wetwebmedia.com, is that the wet/dry needs alot of o2 for the bacteria to perform their jobs.
its not a huge amount of co2 but the water is usually low in o2 this all depends on sizes and what not, no one notices except reef keepers and not often due to the massive aeriation and plant life etc. and no fresh is gonna notice factors there are: plants & algae, and aeriation because the o2 in the tank will help rid you of co2. people with huge aeriation may find their plants die because it's releasing it in the exchange on the surface before plants can utilize it. but yeah. i think it can affect things though even on such a small scale due to the gas exchange, plants, algae, etc
man... did this make sense? i'm a little tired.....

 

[urville]

actually i'm now wondering how right that is... hmm..
it seems to me that a wet/dry in addition to depleting that o2 by bacteria may be rich in neither or just o2?
a. bacteria eat up the oxygen to perform their jobs
b. the gas exchange is going on in a massive way in the wet/dry especially in the biomedia area. so...
wouldnt it release all the co2? would it get o2 as well? or would it deplete both due to bacteria and gas exchange?
hmmm...
man i shall email them tomorrow on this stumper.

i'm not suggesting i would use protein skimming only that it's present in nature and thats for the people trying to recreate the natural system. i want to find the natural/not natural system whichever it ends up being that self perpetuates as much as possible. i just find that to be... awesome.

 

[TankGirl]

I agree that it is totally cool if we could replicate nature in our tanks, and that is why the EZTank stuff is so fascinating to me.

I would assume that whatever O2 is lost to our beloved bacteria would return to the water with the necessary "splash" of the wet/dry return - hard to completely eliminate it. The splash also helps outgas the CO2, and is why many of us with planted tanks eschew biowheels, but doubtless you know this already, urville!

Keep us posted with your findings....

 

[Medusa Head]

The guy at eztank also claims to be a lawyer.

If he wants to increase his business he needs to hire someone to professionally redesign his site. People aren't even going to be interested in trying his products with the way he presents them.

 

[TankGirl]

You are so right, Medusa!

They are very proud of how time consuming their site is to navigate, it's their gimmick to make you think you are getting access to an elite group of products.

 

[urville]

at this point my refugium will consist of a Deep Sand Bed of at least 6" and must be comprised of fine sand. sugar sand. No UGF yuk!
this highly anaerobis bed must be 4" to obtain the bacteria responsible for turning NITRITES to NITROGEN. which is freely released. this area will be powerheaded across it's surfact to keep detritus from building said detritus will be mechanically filtered at the Deep sand bed outlet.
the water leaving this are will be severly depleted of oxygen, it will now pass into the planted sectopn, essentiallyan additional area of fast growing plants that will aid in reoxygizing the water. also a venturi will be utilized at the rturn pump to help oxygenate. this water will return to the tank and be blowing almost straight down across the sand in the tank which will also be planted . rather than overflow i will put in a cutoff, maybe if i can find one that stops the water if the power goes out anyway, it will be pulled from a tube much like a powerfilter so it catches detritus tht will later be collected from the mechanical. stirring of the top 1/2 is okay but other than that no maintenance needs performed below that level. use of MTS in the DSB is optional, rather i imagine not needed. but if so you can use filter bags avail from drsfostersmith to screen inlets and outlets. at this point it takes two weeks for the bed to become active. then nitrates should fall to zero soon after, think when planning to cycle at least 10 times an hour AT LEAST. also you must either dose trace elements or perform water changes for this, also topping off of evap should be new water. one a month vac freestanding detritus since the sand wont let it go down. one a week change or clean the mechanical, the bacteria if any arent essential and pose no threat to the system if removed and replaced.
i was right the wet/dry depletes CO2 not O2. this is bad, any wet/dry users should avoid plants if not CO2 dosing. this is true to a smaller degree with canisters which in my opinion are failed wet/drys. or glorified PF's. just me flame o matic is on stun.
anyway
a couple more discussions and i'll enact this plan and report dilligently.

 

[TankGirl]

What kind of lighting are you having over your planted section? Will you keep critters with them?

I am very interested in how this will work in actual practice, and everything sounds good to me!

 

[greenmaji]

I realize that Im relitively new here, I just was doing some searching around.. I have done alot of the same thinking that has been brought up in this old thread.. I think that the CO2 problem with algae scrubbers is delt with in other peoples systems with a dump bucket design.. It increases surfase aggitation to help with CO2 equilbrium with the room it is in.. if you are already injecting CO2 for plants I could see problems with keeping miro-alage even with the increased photoperiod..?? any ideas anyone.. Im thinking a uniterupted photoperiod of 12hrs for the scrubber might give it the shot it needs at growing the mico-algae even in a heavily planted tank..
I like my recent ODNO discovery for lighting these algae scrubbers...NICE..
Im wondering if this member got it working and is holding all the secrets to himself.. ROFL..
But Im willing to continue the discussion if anyone else is intrested.. closed system and all even...LOL

***edit*** It occured to me that an algae scrubber would be detramental to a planted tank.. Ive desided that I would recomend it for fish-only FW tanks.. ***edit***

 

[andywg]

I think you may have missed the main reason that SW setups utilise to get rid of nitrate - the Liverock itself.

Due to its porous nature it contains anaerobic zones which deal with the nitrates. Would you not have to be careful with a DSB with relation to somewhat toxic gas build-up. However I would be most interested to view any results.

Also the water-changes help to ensure a constant supply of trace minerals and prevent the pH of a tank differing too much from the tap (Old Tank Syndrome). This is not so necessary in a saltwater system where the tank is buffered by the corolite or argonite sand and salt to keep the pH higher than most FW.

As a quick rise to the bait: Cannister filters are a way of getting a large amount of filter media into the system without taking up large amounts of room in the tank. While I am the first to say that sumps are the best form of filtration, they are far better than internal or HOB filters IME.

 

[greenmaji]

Any thoughts on algae scrbbers andywg? youve gone into alot of the other topics of the thread.. but seem to have skipped algae scrubbers..

 

[czcz]

I don't uinderstand the appeal of building or buying a algae scrubber or DSB in freshwater, since a tub of anacharis and hornwort and cheap lights will drastically reduce nitrogen waste and could take ammonium before the bacteria does. I really like tech and run reverse photoperiod fuge just to do it, learn, and keep numbers stable, but I think anyone considering SW methods should read Diana Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium as well. (Ive only recently gotten it.) Why tech when plants do the job?