Sump for Freshwater

[Wy Renegade]

So I've run sumps for saltwater tanks in the past, but am for the first time putting together a sump system for freshwater. I've read through a number of threads, and one of the common themes I see is that you don't want baffles in a freshwater sump.

Right now I've got a baffled sump, and I'm running biomedia and heaters in the first chamber and I'm looking to add elodea or anacharis in the middle chamber. Using the baffles to keep anacharis from reaching the DT.

Can someone explain to me why you don't want baffles in a freshwater sump, and if you don't run baffles how do you keep floating plants from reaching the DT.

TIA

[Fresh2o]

Not sure why baffles would be a bad idea in a sump. You can even use plastic mesh to keep the plants away from the return pump.
I ran a FW sump for several years and having decent mechanical filtration that is easy to access and maintain is key to keeping the biofilter free of debris.

[coralbandit]

Baffles are not necessarily bad but they enhance gas exchange .
For most freshwater people that means they loose CO2.
I don't think many FW sumps run refugiums with plants in them ?

[ZxC]

Originally Posted by coralbandit

Baffles are not necessarily bad but they enhance gas exchange .
For most freshwater people that means they loose CO2.
I don't think many FW sumps run refugiums with plants in them ?

Lots of people do, you just need boat loads of CO2 to compensate


As for refugiums, freshwater plants are not the greatest at removing NO3 / PO4. You can have a tank right full with fast growing stem plants and not notice any significant amount of NO3 reduction. Those pathos / Chinese house plants might be able to make a difference, I'm not sure because I don't use them / find them really ugly. A better approach would be a low flow, deep porous section to promote denitrification, that will show significant NO3 reduction.

I've never heard of FW sumps avoiding baffles either....

[Tacit Blues]

Have a sump on my 40g breeder, it has baffles. I think maybe what people are trying to get across is that the more you disturb the water the more off gassing of CO2 you get. Since I don't run CO2 it's never bothered me.

[coralbandit]

I made my last sump for the paludarium to off gas as little as possible .
I found the build from another hobbyist who used a larger[40g] version for his planted 180. I used a 20long.




Pretty easy build with minimal materials even.

[Wy Renegade]

Originally Posted by ZxC

Lots of people do, you just need boat loads of CO2 to compensate


As for refugiums, freshwater plants are not the greatest at removing NO3 / PO4. You can have a tank right full with fast growing stem plants and not notice any significant amount of NO3 reduction. Those pathos / Chinese house plants might be able to make a difference, I'm not sure because I don't use them / find them really ugly. A better approach would be a low flow, deep porous section to promote denitrification, that will show significant NO3 reduction.

I've never heard of FW sumps avoiding baffles either....

If you don't mind, please explain what you mean by a low flow deep porous section. Right now my first chamber is over biomedia, I presume that may be what you mean by porous? Not sure how that is going to promote denitrification however, as the bacteria are convert to nitrate, but still requires either water changes or plant removal to get rid of the nitrate correct? I think my flow is too high for this one, as the pump is actually pushing the substrate in the upper tank. I may go ahead and install a smaller pump.

Anyone know what an ideal flow rate would be in a freshwater.

[Wy Renegade]

Originally Posted by coralbandit

I made my last sump for the paludarium to off gas as little as possible .
I found the build from another hobbyist who used a larger[40g] version for his planted 180. I used a 20long.




Pretty easy build with minimal materials even.

Thanks, I did look at the links you posted. Couple quick questions for you. I presume the only chamber holds biomedia, perhaps with a filter pad over the top of it? Beyond that, I don't really understand the point of the rest of it. You've increased your water volume obviously, but beyond that what is happening, if anything, in the U shaped chamber? Interestingly, I just noticed that you images that I can't see in your post - evidently they are blocked by my firewall. I'll have to check those out at home. Might help answer some of my questions on your build.

[ZxC]

Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

If you don't mind, please explain what you mean by a low flow deep porous section. Right now my first chamber is over biomedia, I presume that may be what you mean by porous? Not sure how that is going to promote denitrification however, as the bacteria are convert to nitrate, but still requires either water changes or plant removal to get rid of the nitrate correct? I think my flow is too high for this one, as the pump is actually pushing the substrate in the upper tank. I may go ahead and install a smaller pump.

Anyone know what an ideal flow rate would be in a freshwater.

Yes, bacteria are creating NO3 in aerobic conditions, but very low flow across a deep pored media will promote anaerobic conditions where denitrification bacteria will thrive, converting NO3 into N2 gas.

Plants will not provide any significant amount of NO3 reduction.
Water changes will still be the best / most common option.

Instead of running a refugium - style chamber (with your elodea or anacharis ) you can run a chamber with some denitrification media. That is of course, if you are looking to remove some NO3. This is certainly not a requirement

Check out Kevin Novak on YouTube.

You can throttle back the pump with a gate or ball valve.
You can "Y" or "T" off the return line to decrease output flow.
You can run a baffled return output or a spraybar to decrease flow.
You can have 2 or 3 outputs which are blown into one another to reduce specific flow patterns.

[Wy Renegade]

Originally Posted by ZxC

Yes, bacteria are creating NO3 in aerobic conditions, but very low flow across a deep pored media will promote anaerobic conditions where denitrification bacteria will thrive, converting NO3 into N2 gas.

Plants will not provide any significant amount of NO3 reduction.
Water changes will still be the best / most common option.

Instead of running a refugium - style chamber (with your elodea or anacharis ) you can run a chamber with some denitrification media. That is of course, if you are looking to remove some NO3. This is certainly not a requirement

Check out Kevin Novak on YouTube.

You can throttle back the pump with a gate or ball valve.
You can "Y" or "T" off the return line to decrease output flow.
You can run a baffled return output or a spraybar to decrease flow.
You can have 2 or 3 outputs which are blown into one another to reduce specific flow patterns.

So in a saltwater tank one uses a deep sandbed or life rock for denitrification. I doubt biomedia, given its porosity is going to create much of a anaerobic zone, so what would you suggest as a denitrification media. I will check out Kevin and see what he suggests. Not a real fan of throttling back the return pump as that tends to shorten pump life, but doing a split return would be an option. However I have a smaller return pump, so that is a simpler solution in this case. Thanks for your input.

[ZxC]

Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

So in a saltwater tank one uses a deep sandbed or life rock for denitrification. I doubt biomedia, given its porosity is going to create much of a anaerobic zone, so what would you suggest as a denitrification media. I will check out Kevin and see what he suggests. Not a real fan of throttling back the return pump as that tends to shorten pump life, but doing a split return would be an option. However I have a smaller return pump, so that is a simpler solution in this case. Thanks for your input.

Yep, way easier to just swap pumps lol.

Kevin has some easy to follow tutorials and he gives products that he uses, and results to follow up.

If I remember he doesn't do water changes because his NO3 stays so low at all times, I do not like that. Water changes are still completely necessary despite NO3 levels staying near 0.

[Wy Renegade]

Originally Posted by ZxC

Yep, way easier to just swap pumps lol.

Kevin has some easy to follow tutorials and he gives products that he uses, and results to follow up.

If I remember he doesn't do water changes because his NO3 stays so low at all times, I do not like that. Water changes are still completely necessary despite NO3 levels staying near 0.

Perfect thank you, will check it out. Replacement of micronutrients etc. as well as removal of toxic substances. Unless one has a complete regiment of dosing materials you run the risk of old tank syndrome if you aren't doing any water changes.

[Wy Renegade]

LOL natural kitty litter (i.e. baked clay), in a tall column to create a anaerobic area. Easy enough. The laterite to add iron back in might be a bit more difficult as it is mostly sold as a powder.

[coralbandit]

Originally Posted by Wy Renegade

If you don't mind, please explain what you mean by a low flow deep porous section. Right now my first chamber is over biomedia, I presume that may be what you mean by porous? Not sure how that is going to promote denitrification however, as the bacteria are convert to nitrate, but still requires either water changes or plant removal to get rid of the nitrate correct? I think my flow is too high for this one, as the pump is actually pushing the substrate in the upper tank. I may go ahead and install a smaller pump.

Anyone know what an ideal flow rate would be in a freshwater.

The first chamber holds a sock, then overflows into second chamber where more mechanicals and bio is and then water passes through the sponge after going down through mechanical and bio. 1 overflow from sock and one baffle for media.So 2 different mechanicals ,bio and asponge [which treated properly is bio] and minimal outgassing.The tank has one overflow then another in sump and then the return.Out gassing is serious in sumps .I went through 20lbs of CO2 every 2-3 months in my 180 ...
Here is a video of it running [this is the guy who designed its video] ;

[Arthur11]

If I have a larger tank, like anything that is over 40-gallons, I will install the aquarium sump to keep the water clean. A sump does a better job than ordinary filters when it comes to maintaining a healthy living environment for my fish.