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Old 08-23-2013, 01:11 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dubs1281 View Post
How would they qt every fish they got? I walked in the same way one time. I thought the same thing, but who has the time and space to qt hundreds of fish? They stay in the shop for little over a week anyway so its not there problem.

While I can't speak for all stores, I do know that when they are going to a wholesale house to pick the fish out for the store, they are buying from tanks that have been medicated when the fish first arrived so there is some protection against disease. Also, when looking at the fish, if the tank is full of sick fish, the wholesaler ( well good ones at least) will not sell the fish from that tank. But in a wholesale house, it's not uncommon to have multiple tanks of the same fish so there are choices unlike in a pet store that only has 1 tank of a certain fish. Then, when the fish get to the store ( here's a secret) stores will use clear medications to continue to prevent disease outbreaks. So the need for a store to QT the freshwater fish from the wholesaler is not as bad. Saltwater, on the other hand, is a different story. These fish, at the wholesale houses I worked at or owned, were QTd and medicated before they were put up for sale. Stores that bought fish from the QT section, would continue the QT at their stores.
But the reason you want to QT fish when you get them from a Pet Store is because now the fish have been exposed to who knows what that was in the store's system and other fish. That's the downsides to the centralized systems in stores. It no longer matters if the fish is WC or Tank bred, once in a centralized system, they have been exposed to whatever is in there. THAT'S why we all should be quarantining new fish from the stores.
Hope this helps
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:18 PM   #42
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My only option for the fish I keep is wildcaught. That's all that's available for sale in the US. Over in Europe, they can get captive bred, but most are still wildcaught.
I'm assuming you are talking about Saltwater fish and not Freshwater fish as most freshwater fish on the market are man made creations and not wild fish.
It's a shame your LFS doesn't get the tank bred saltwater fish. Especially since one of the biggest breeding facility is in FL and not all that far from you. You may want to ask your LFS why they don't carry the tank bred varieties, especially of clownfish and gobies?
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:29 PM   #43
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i think its harder for a lfs to keep their prices down because they dont have the financial backing of a giant chain like petco/smart. which also make money off their large variety of other pets and pet products.
i gladly pay a little more at a lfs because it's normally better quality, and i can get more unique fish, some of which come from the wild to stay on topic. they also do a good job of quarantining any WC fish so they can stabilize before i buy them. (at my lfs)
Actually, my lfs here in town have absolutely amazing prices compared to any other stores. I saw a fist sized rose bubble tipped nem for $40. Anywhere else it would be $100+ and his prices carry over to corals, salt fish, and anything for fresh water. It just depends on their business plan and practices.

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My independent LFS doesn't QT their fish! I was there once on the day they received their fish shipment and they had all the bags floating in the tanks they were going to release them into. That worries me!
There are very few fish stores that quarantine anything.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:39 PM   #44
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Didn't mean to offend you.
no offense taken at all. all good.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:56 PM   #45
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I'm assuming you are talking about Saltwater fish and not Freshwater fish as most freshwater fish on the market are man made creations and not wild fish.
It's a shame your LFS doesn't get the tank bred saltwater fish. Especially since one of the biggest breeding facility is in FL and not all that far from you. You may want to ask your LFS why they don't carry the tank bred varieties, especially of clownfish and gobies?
There are somewhere around 32,000 different species of fish on earth. The local stores around here carry the same ten kinds of tetras, ten kinds of goldfish, 15 or so different livebearers, couple plecostomus, and then the mixed tank of african ciclids and the mixed barbs that most of the chain stores have. Oh yeah, and the bettas in cups, almost forgot the bettas in cups!

Anyhow, I'm interested in other fish, predominately Parosphromenus species along with Apistogramma and native Elassoma's. All unique fish, certainly not "man made creations."

I don't yet have a saltwater tank. If I was buying a clownfish though I would certainly be buying a captive bred one.
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Old 08-23-2013, 04:16 PM   #46
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There are somewhere around 32,000 different species of fish on earth. The local stores around here carry the same ten kinds of tetras, ten kinds of goldfish, 15 or so different livebearers, couple plecostomus, and then the mixed tank of african ciclids and the mixed barbs that most of the chain stores have. Oh yeah, and the bettas in cups, almost forgot the bettas in cups!

Anyhow, I'm interested in other fish, predominately Parosphromenus species along with Apistogramma and native Elassoma's. All unique fish, certainly not "man made creations."

I don't yet have a saltwater tank. If I was buying a clownfish though I would certainly be buying a captive bred one.
I'm not doubting your knowledge at all but I'm pretty sure 90% of the fish you have listed of not all of them will be captive bred appistogramma, betas and barbs have next to no colour at all if they are wild the colour is brought out by selective breeding so if these fish you are seeing have colour they are captive bred!
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:06 PM   #47
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While I can't speak for all stores, I do know that when they are going to a wholesale house to pick the fish out for the store, they are buying from tanks that have been medicated when the fish first arrived so there is some protection against disease. Also, when looking at the fish, if the tank is full of sick fish, the wholesaler ( well good ones at least) will not sell the fish from that tank. But in a wholesale house, it's not uncommon to have multiple tanks of the same fish so there are choices unlike in a pet store that only has 1 tank of a certain fish. Then, when the fish get to the store ( here's a secret) stores will use clear medications to continue to prevent disease outbreaks. So the need for a store to QT the freshwater fish from the wholesaler is not as bad. Saltwater, on the other hand, is a different story. These fish, at the wholesale houses I worked at or owned, were QTd and medicated before they were put up for sale. Stores that bought fish from the QT section, would continue the QT at their stores.
But the reason you want to QT fish when you get them from a Pet Store is because now the fish have been exposed to who knows what that was in the store's system and other fish. That's the downsides to the centralized systems in stores. It no longer matters if the fish is WC or Tank bred, once in a centralized system, they have been exposed to whatever is in there. THAT'S why we all should be quarantining new fish from the stores.
Hope this helps
That makes more sense now.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:31 PM   #48
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no offense taken at all. all good.
I think more fish from Walmart die off than get bought.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:56 PM   #49
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I'm not doubting your knowledge at all but I'm pretty sure 90% of the fish you have listed of not all of them will be captive bred appistogramma, betas and barbs have next to no colour at all if they are wild the colour is brought out by selective breeding so if these fish you are seeing have colour they are captive bred!
Really? Well than here are some "colorless" wild caught bettas:
Betta imbellis


Another "colorless" wildcaught betta species:
Betta albimarginata


A "colorless" wildcaught Parosphromenus tweediei:
http://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/tweediei.html

and rounding out the group with a colorless Elassoma evergladei (a native Florida freshwater fish no less):



As far as Apistogramma goes, Apistogramma borellii tends to lose it's coloration in captivity. I believe cacatoides has gotten a bit more color in captivity, but some species actually lose color in captivity from one generation to another.

I listed three types I was interested in; Apistogramma, Elassoma and Parosphromenus. How are 90% of those brighter when selectively bred in captivity when only Apistogramma out of those three is regularly bred in the US?
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:00 PM   #50
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Really? Well than here are some "colorless" wild caught bettas:
Betta imbellis

Another "colorless" wildcaught betta species:
Betta albimarginata

A "colorless" wildcaught Parosphromenus tweediei:
http://www.parosphromenus-project.org/en/tweediei.html

and rounding out the group with a colorless Elassoma evergladei (a native Florida freshwater fish no less):

As far as Apistogramma goes, Apistogramma borellii tends to lose it's coloration in captivity. I believe cacatoides has gotten a bit more color in captivity, but some species actually lose color in captivity from one generation to another.

I listed three types I was interested in; Apistogramma, Elassoma and Parosphromenus. How are 90% of those brighter when selectively bred in captivity when only Apistogramma out of those three is regularly bred in the US?
Sorry I merged your comment with another's comment before stating that all the fish In your lfs are wild caught as are most in lfs in U.S my bad!
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:37 PM   #51
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That's okay, there's a lot of room for misinterpretation online..
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:25 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jenniferinfl View Post
There are somewhere around 32,000 different species of fish on earth. The local stores around here carry the same ten kinds of tetras, ten kinds of goldfish, 15 or so different livebearers, couple plecostomus, and then the mixed tank of african ciclids and the mixed barbs that most of the chain stores have. Oh yeah, and the bettas in cups, almost forgot the bettas in cups!

Anyhow, I'm interested in other fish, predominately Parosphromenus species along with Apistogramma and native Elassoma's. All unique fish, certainly not "man made creations."

I don't yet have a saltwater tank. If I was buying a clownfish though I would certainly be buying a captive bred one.
Okay, not trying to knitpick but
Of those 10 Tetras, if any are long fins, they are not wild. Albinos? again not wild. Berry types? Man made, Long fins- man made, H1N1s? Def man made.
Barbs: Albino Tiger barbs? Not wild, Long fin Rosy? Not wild, Tiger barbs? Most likely not wild (I'm not sure the US has imported a wild caught barb in years. Most are tank raised in Asia farms)
Bettas? Unless you are talking about the rather bland looking ones that ARE wild, Man made
Goldfish, unless they are Carp, Man made.
Livebearers_ Swords, unless they are green, Man made. Mollies, Green Sailfins are the only potentially wild ones. We won't even touch on the guppies
So you see, most of the fish are probably NOT wild fish. Sorry
I do empathize tho, I know what it's like to not be able to get the exotic fish. Those will need to be wild caught most likely. I'm sure there are sites around the country that can get you those fish. You may want to check in the Cichlid Discussion forum for suggested sites
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:16 PM   #53
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Okay, not trying to knitpick but
Of those 10 Tetras, if any are long fins, they are not wild. Albinos? again not wild. Berry types? Man made, Long fins- man made, H1N1s? Def man made.
Barbs: Albino Tiger barbs? Not wild, Long fin Rosy? Not wild, Tiger barbs? Most likely not wild (I'm not sure the US has imported a wild caught barb in years. Most are tank raised in Asia farms)
Bettas? Unless you are talking about the rather bland looking ones that ARE wild, Man made
Goldfish, unless they are Carp, Man made.
Livebearers_ Swords, unless they are green, Man made. Mollies, Green Sailfins are the only potentially wild ones. We won't even touch on the guppies
So you see, most of the fish are probably NOT wild fish. Sorry
I do empathize tho, I know what it's like to not be able to get the exotic fish. Those will need to be wild caught most likely. I'm sure there are sites around the country that can get you those fish. You may want to check in the Cichlid Discussion forum for suggested sites
You're still misunderstanding me. I'm saying that the fish I'm interested in are not available captive bred and are not man made. There are plenty of man made atrocities in the pet stores; Bubble eye goldfish, lion head goldfish, balloon tetras, balloon rams, balloon mollies and don't get me started on the "Glow" fish.

It is really unfortunate that we can't just appreciate the fish as we found them, there's always all this selective breeding we have to start that turns healthy fish into abominations of nature. There's plenty of it I don't mind, I can enjoy looking at a fancy Betta, but I really dislike the balloon fish that have issues even swimming naturally like a normal one of their species.

I am well aware of which fish are captive bred and which are wild caught as I used to fill out the order form to actually order those fish.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:33 PM   #54
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I have feeder guppies r they usually wild caught and they r with my fancy guppies
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:46 PM   #55
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I have feeder guppies r they usually wild caught and they r with my fancy guppies
Actually, feeder guppies are usually just mixed fancies that have been mixed so much that they reverted back to their wild coloration. Atleast from what I understand.
And even if they haven't reverted back it's still very unlikely they are wild caught as wild caught would likely bring a higher price than the $.20 feeders do. They are likely mixed with some sort of fancy strain but haven't bred true. Wild type is generally more dominant than fancy in guppies which is why they show that coloring.
Just like endlers, unless they are registered as "n class" they are likely mixed with another type or guppy.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:49 PM   #56
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You're still misunderstanding me. I'm saying that the fish I'm interested in are not available captive bred and are not man made. There are plenty of man made atrocities in the pet stores; Bubble eye goldfish, lion head goldfish, balloon tetras, balloon rams, balloon mollies and don't get me started on the "Glow" fish.

It is really unfortunate that we can't just appreciate the fish as we found them, there's always all this selective breeding we have to start that turns healthy fish into abominations of nature. There's plenty of it I don't mind, I can enjoy looking at a fancy Betta, but I really dislike the balloon fish that have issues even swimming naturally like a normal one of their species.

I am well aware of which fish are captive bred and which are wild caught as I used to fill out the order form to actually order those fish.
Maybe I'm not such a dumb idiot someone else has done the same! Hahaha
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:50 PM   #57
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:55 PM   #58
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I do not have a problem with wild caught if it is done humanly (I know we cant really know this though). Think about this though, in some places the people depend on the wild caught fish as a livelihood. Cardinal tetras and neon tetras for example are an enormous source of income for the locals. And by all research the wild pops are not being endangered.
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:06 PM   #59
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I really like most of my fish to be tank raised as I prefer to have minimal impact on the natural environment of our favorite fish.
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:14 PM   #60
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You're still misunderstanding me. I'm saying that the fish I'm interested in are not available captive bred and are not man made. There are plenty of man made atrocities in the pet stores; Bubble eye goldfish, lion head goldfish, balloon tetras, balloon rams, balloon mollies and don't get me started on the "Glow" fish.

It is really unfortunate that we can't just appreciate the fish as we found them, there's always all this selective breeding we have to start that turns healthy fish into abominations of nature. There's plenty of it I don't mind, I can enjoy looking at a fancy Betta, but I really dislike the balloon fish that have issues even swimming naturally like a normal one of their species.

I am well aware of which fish are captive bred and which are wild caught as I used to fill out the order form to actually order those fish.
Got cha As Joey Discus did, I took your comment as that the 90% of the fish in your local store were wild caught. I understand (better now ) that you are talking about those fish specifically and not fish in general. Sorry for the confusion Maybe it's a good thing you can only get those fish you want in wild form. You then, can control the genetics.

I also agree, there are too many misshapened fish in the marketplace for my taste as well

Hope we got that straightened out
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