Tap Water - Unstable pH

[mitch0]

I'm having problems with fancy goldfish dying off in my aquarium, which I've posted a thread about separately:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/my-fancy-goldfish-are-dying-off-one-by-one-315441.html

One of the issues identified is that the pH of my tap water is not stable and is potentially too high. It comes out of the tap at around 7.4 and within 24 hours rises to around 8.2. This raises two problems - firstly the pH is not consistent/stable which is not good for the fish and secondly, is 8.2 dangerously high?

Should I be looking to lower the pH or should I look to make it a consistent 8.2?

In theory it should be easy to get a steady 8.2 if I just prepare the water and leave it to stand for 24 hours before doing a water change.

Alternatively should I lower the pH? For lowering the pH I can see two potential options:

1) Use a product such as Fluval Peat Granules in the filter - not sure how stable this would be, or if it would be able to offset the rising pH as it occurred in the water after a water change.

2) Invest in a reverse osmosis filter - use this and remineralise before putting water in the aquarium. If I go down this route does anyone have any product suggestions for remineralisation? Most of the ones I have seen seem to be aimed at tropical or marine tanks.

Not really sure what the best option is here, any ideas or thoughts on the above would be appreciated.

 

[Roz]

Hi there,

I know in the other thread I mentioned the pH did seem high - just a response / observation.

I'm not sure what the tolerance levels are - but have been told that goldfish prefer more alkaline water than acidic, and so a pH in the upper rather than lower ranges.

The instructions that go with the API water test kit outline the right pH for goldfish (I'm not able to access my copy at the moment to check the figure for you). It will tell you just how high it may go before it becomes a problem.

I think that wood lowers pH - you could buy some that has been properly treated, and this would help.


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[Delapool]

Hi, have you tested kh and gh? Kh (carbonate hardness) will tell you how much work you would need to put into lowering ph.

What is your tank temperature now can I ask? Reading through the other post the high temps as mentioned and bacterial infection could have wiped out your fish. UV filters need to be quite good to kill off bacteria.

What sort of water treatments are you doing with the water changes also? And is the tap water used for changes roughly temperature matched to tank temp?

 

[mitch0]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't currently have any proper way of testing hardness, only some multi purpose test strips which don't give you actual readings but just tell you if there is a problem. I will have a look at getting a proper test kit for this and come back with readings.

The tank temperature varies depending on the weather on a particular day, typically being lower in the morning and higher by the evening. As it has cooled down a bit recently the tank is currently averaging at 20-23c.

The 9w UV seems to have some impact, in that I can tell it is inhibiting algae growth, but perhaps is not strong enough to kill off bacteria.

I am treating the tap water with Interpet Tapsafe which according to the product information removes chlorine, chloramines, and heavy metals. It also adds aloe vera, bacteria, and enzymes.

I am not currently temperature matching for water changes. The reason I don't is that the temperature could do with being a little lower, and as I am not making massive water changes in one go (typically 10% - 25%) it does not have much of an impact on the overall temperature. Even 25% changes only seem to drop it by 1c at most.

Edit: Just ordered an API GH & KH test kit - should be here within the next couple of days so I will update with a reading then.

I will test with Tetra 6-in-1 strips tonight as well but I doubt this will tell me much.

 

[Rivercats]

Just so you know, UV sterilizers will only kill free floating green water algae. Parasites, bacteria, and green water must pass through the UV filter in order to be killed. Also UV's work much better when water flow passes slowly through them allowing more contact time.

 

[mitch0]

Thanks. I actually have a problem with free floating algae due to the amount of sunlight. It is so bad that I've had it growing in water left in a steam mop. Also I left the aquarium to stand for a week before starting using it and the water turned completely green. With the UV filter there is no free floating algae.

 

[jlk]

Your ph stable at 8.2 is not an issue. As you are barely changing any amount of water, even 50% wc with water at ph of 7.4 is not going to significantly affect the overall tank ph. The 10% wcs your doing will not have any affect. Goldfish do best in high ph, hard alkaline water and most serious keepers recommend buffering water that is less than 7.6-7.8 range for stability and health.

There are also numerous aquarium owners that regularly do large wcs with tap water that gasses off a point (or more) higher or lower than what their tanks read without any issues.

Although your parameters may seem stable, I actually suspect it's the lack of sufficient wcs that may be playing a role here. There are numerous components that we do not test for in fw that are likely accumulating and/or are very depleted from lack of sufficient wcs.


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[Delapool]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't currently have any proper way of testing hardness, only some multi purpose test strips which don't give you actual readings but just tell you if there is a problem. I will have a look at getting a proper test kit for this and come back with readings.

The tank temperature varies depending on the weather on a particular day, typically being lower in the morning and higher by the evening. As it has cooled down a bit recently the tank is currently averaging at 20-23c.

The 9w UV seems to have some impact, in that I can tell it is inhibiting algae growth, but perhaps is not strong enough to kill off bacteria.

I am treating the tap water with Interpet Tapsafe which according to the product information removes chlorine, chloramines, and heavy metals. It also adds aloe vera, bacteria, and enzymes.

I am not currently temperature matching for water changes. The reason I don't is that the temperature could do with being a little lower, and as I am not making massive water changes in one go (typically 10% - 25%) it does not have much of an impact on the overall temperature. Even 25% changes only seem to drop it by 1c at most.

Edit: Just ordered an API GH & KH test kit - should be here within the next couple of days so I will update with a reading then.

I will test with Tetra 6-in-1 strips tonight as well but I doubt this will tell me much.

Could you refresh our memory on pwc schedule now? I saw 25% per week plus some 10%'s?

Temp change with pwc sounds fine. If it was shifting 5C or so would be more something to try reducing.

Does tap safe say what sort of bacteria it is adding? I find adding sludge destroying bacteria over summer in hot temps may cause trouble but this is a working theory. See first paragraphs in article.


http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/water/72-heterotrophic-bacteria.html

 

[mitch0]

Your ph stable at 8.2 is not an issue. As you are barely changing any amount of water, even 50% wc with water at ph of 7.4 is not going to significantly affect the overall tank ph. The 10% wcs your doing will not have any affect. Goldfish do best in high ph, hard alkaline water and most serious keepers recommend buffering water that is less than 7.6-7.8 range for stability and health.

I just did a quick test - 50% aquarium (8.2) mixed with fresh tap (7.4) and the pH reading was somewhere between the two - is this not what you would expect to happen or are you saying this level of temporary change in pH is not big enough to harm the fish?

Although your parameters may seem stable, I actually suspect it's the lack of sufficient wcs that may be playing a role here. There are numerous components that we do not test for in fw that are likely accumulating and/or are very depleted from lack of sufficient wcs.

Could you refresh our memory on pwc schedule now? I saw 25% per week plus some 10%'s?

Temp change with pwc sounds fine. If it was shifting 5C or so would be more something to try reducing.

Does tap safe say what sort of bacteria it is adding? I find adding sludge destroying bacteria over summer in hot temps may cause trouble but this is a working theory. See first paragraphs in article.


Heterotrophic Bacteria and Their Practical Application in a Freshwater Aquarium

I'm currently doing one 25% water change a week, and sometimes one/two 10-20% changes on top. Articles I've read online all seem to be vague about what % water change to do, but some seem to suggest between 20-30% weekly. Is this not enough?

I've just had a look on the tapsafe bottle, unfortunately it doesn't list what bacteria it contains.

 

[gilpi]

Your ph is fine stay away from the buffers trying to adjust it.
The history of your fish could be a big part of the problem, did they all come from the same place?
Maybe they were already infected when you got them and were doomed no matter where they wound up, I'm thinking this since you mentioned ich.
Your ph is just a small pebble in a mountain and we tend to focus on insignificant parameters.
I believe you are doing the best you can and the best we can do is to provide clean water and a good diet.

 

[mitch0]

Your ph is fine stay away from the buffers trying to adjust it.

My main concern is the fact the water straight from the tap changes pH before reaching 8.2 so it is not a constant pH in the aquarium.

The history of your fish could be a big part of the problem, did they all come from the same place?
Maybe they were already infected when you got them and were doomed no matter where they wound up, I'm thinking this since you mentioned ich.

I originally had 3 fish from the same place, which I'd had for 6 months or a little longer. One of them died around a month before I moved them to the new tank.

Shortly after moving these two to the new tank, I added 3 fish from a different supplier.

It was not long after this point the ich outbreak occurred - not sure if related to the new fish or not, I'd never seen ich on any of the original 3 up until this point. The supplier of the newer fish is thought to be reputable - they only sell fancy goldfish, been open for over 25 years, only UK fishery to have a health status that allows them to ship fish world wide.

Your ph is just a small pebble in a mountain and we tend to focus on insignificant parameters.
I believe you are doing the best you can and the best we can do is to provide clean water and a good diet.

Thanks, I just want to make sure I'm doing the best I can do for them.

For food I'm feeding them daily on Saki Hikari Fancy Goldfish Food, from limited online research into what food is best for fancies, this product seems to crop up a lot. I've been thinking about adding some vegetables into the mix as well.

 

[jlk]

Can you please perform a simple test? Set out a container of tap water with an airstone or bubbler. After 24 hours, test the ph. This will be your 'actual' ph after dissolved gasses have been released. If it is the same as straight from your tap (@7.4) then this indicates something in your tank is raising your ph. If it reads the same as your tank (@8), then you can consider options for aging water before adding it to your tank for water changes or buffering it to your tank level prior to adding it.

However, as I mentioned earlier, you have only been performing small water changes (10-25%) and the ph change would be minimal (if any) from these thus I highly doubt ph is a factor in any issue with your fish's health (past or present). We need look further into the issues your having in order to discover what may be the causative factor(s).

 

[mitch0]

I did a similar test, but without an air pump, when I first discovered the differences in pH. The tap water rised from 7.4 to 8.2 (same as aquarium) within 24 hours. If 8.2 is a suitable pH then perhaps I am best off aging the water for 24 hours before doing changes just as a precaution.

 

[mitch0]

So I tested the water hardness (tap and aquarium) using API's test kit.

KH around 100ppm (6 drops)
GH around 200ppm (10 drops)

Not really sure what this means, other than the KH is low for goldfish according to the manual and the GH is about right.

I've purchased some containers - enough for 25% water changes, that I'm going to prepare the water in and store for a few days before using to allow the pH time to settle, that way it will be at least a stable 8.2.