Tetra Safe Start

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hensleyjk said:
Prime will kill the TSS bacteria because it binds the ammonia that the TSS feeds on, thus starving it.

Jesse
Click to expand...


I must admit I'm missing something as not convinced on that.

I know seachem is quite heavy on promotion but there are no 'red flags' raised on this on their web site.

In addition other people use prime not only on established tanks but also for cycling.

Last one is I have used ammonia detoxifiers myself on a mini cycle and still cycled a tank.

The bacteria themselves can survive months without a good food source.

I can understand there may be some reason the two should not be dosed together however I'm not seeing what that is?


http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

There is always some ammonium present in a tank. Ammonium (detoxified ammonia) is not particularly dangerous for bacteria/fish.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html
 
I'm just stating what Tetra said to an email sent to a member of another forum.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a
chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up
ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using
such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after
using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of
ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the
food the bacteria require to live.
Click to expand...



Jesse
 
Here is the entire thing for reference.

TO: TetraCare Customer Care Team

Hi*[http://fishlore-fishlorecom]
I belong to an on-line forum and several questions come up about the use
of*SafeStart.*
The directions on the bottle aren't very clear.
Many members have had luck with it but some haven't.
We'd love to be able to answer questions about it's use.
If you could send step by step instructions so that I may pass them on,
it would be great.

Some of the more popular questions are:
Will conditioners that detox ammonia effect*SafeStart?
If so, how and why?

Do you add water, conditioner,*SafeStart*and fish all at once or should
you:
a) Add fish, wait a day to add*Tetra SafeStart?
b) Add*Tetra*SafeStart*wait a day to add fish?
c) Do you add your full stock of fish at once or start off with just a
few?

If you've already added fish and have an ammonia reading, will Tetra
SafeStart*still be effective?

At what ammonia reading will*Tetra*SafeStart*still be effective.

Is there too high of a reading that would render*Tetra SafeStart
ineffective?
What would that reading be?

Can it be refrigerated without harming the bacteria?

After adding*Tetra*SafeStart:
How soon should you test the water and why?
(I've heard it said you'll get high ammonia readings if you test within
10 days of adding TSS. Isn't that harmful to the fish? If not, why?)

How soon should you do a*water change*after adding the product and why?

Does TSS effect the pH?

What is the key to the success or failure of*Tetra*SafeStart?

I'm sorry, I know I have a lot of questions but the forums goal is the
same as yours, happy*healthy fish.

I appreciate your taking the time to address my questions.
Feel free to add any other information you think would be pertinent to
the success or failure of*SafeStart.

Thank you!
Click to expand...

And here is the reply from Tetra

Hi there,

Wow, lots of questions! All are pretty simple, and we get them a lot
too. I'll suggest marketing address them on our website, next time they
update it. Out of curiosity, what forum is it?*

So...where to begin? First, ideally you should set up the tank, and let
it run at least 24 hours, then, shortly before you head off to the store
for your first fish, add TSS to the tank. Within two hours, you should
add the fish. Our normal recommendation is to add one small fish per
ten gallons of water. However, you CAN fully stock the tank, you just
need to keep a close eye on it, and be sure to not complicate matters by
overfeeding as well. We recommend this method for African cichlid tanks
since it is best to fully stock such a tank from the beginning due to
territorial issues. For a novice fish-keeper, we'd recommend the one
small fish per ten gallons rule for the first two weeks. Within two
weeks, TSS should have fully cycled the tank and they can start slowly
adding more fish, one at a time.

In regards to ammonia products, yes, they kill TSS. Any type, whether a
chloramines remover or detoxifier, etc, anything that says it locks up
ammonia or removes ammonia. Do not add TSS for 24 hours after using
such a product, and do not add such a product for at least 7 days after
using TSS. The bacteria is housed in a special stabilized solution of
ammonia, so if you remove/lock up the ammonia, you remove all of the
food the bacteria require to live.

If you already have fish, and are having an ammonia issue, it is best to
get the ammonia levels down to below 4.0. 4.0 and higher is just as
toxic to TSS as it is to fish. While 2.0 -3.5*PPM*ammonia may harm some
of the TSS bacteria, it should still have some effect. You may want to
do a second dose several days after adding the first one, if you are not
seeing the results you want. Keep in mind, these are bacteria, not a
chemical, so results are slow to see. Give the product at least 5-7
days.

Best temperature for TSS is between 40 and 80 degrees. Freezing and
extreme heat will destroy it. Refrigeration is okay, but not necessary.

You can test the water any time, but really, you should probably wait at
least 48 hours. We expect TSS to start slowly seeding the tank, and
making a difference in about that time. You have to have some ammonia
occur in the tank to provide the cycle needed, so it will usually create
levels or reduce levels to around 1.0-1.5 ppm, and they should stay
there for a week to 14 days, and then come down. Sorry, these levels
would be for both ammonia and nitrite. These are considered stress, but
not toxic, levels, and should not cause any long term damage to the
fish.

We recommend waiting two weeks before a water change. Of course, if for
some reason, the levels go up to a high level again, we would recommend
a change at that point, and another dose. Usually, the hobbyist has
done something wrong the first time, in such cases.

Nope, bacteria should not affect the pH.

Hmmm....be sure the levels are not already toxic, shake the container
thoroughly, be sure to add the right dosage, do not use an ammonia
detoxifying product, and be patient. It won't give you zero readings in
an hour, like some folks think. By the way, carbon does not affect it
but uv lights do...we get those questions too. :) And just an
interesting point...the large*aquariums, such as the Georgia*Aquarium,
and the*Shedd Aquarium, as well as huge research labs in this country
and other countries, also use TSS as well as the saltwater version Bio
Spira.*

If I have not addressed all of your questions, please let me know.

Regards,

Tetra Care
Click to expand...


Jesse
 
Delapool said:
I must admit I'm missing something as not convinced on that.

I know seachem is quite heavy on promotion but there are no 'red flags' raised on this on their web site.

In addition other people use prime not only on established tanks but also for cycling.

Last one is I have used ammonia detoxifiers myself on a mini cycle and still cycled a tank.

The bacteria themselves can survive months without a good food source.

I can understand there may be some reason the two should not be dosed together however I'm not seeing what that is?


Seachem. Prime

There is always some ammonium present in a tank. Ammonium (detoxified ammonia) is not particularly dangerous for bacteria/fish.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html
Click to expand...

^^^^^THIS^^^^^ !
When I said age water that was how I found my way around(their bull)!
IMO(understand?) prime "does whatever"(I am very scientific!) to the ammonia(FOOD) for the bacteria? Not the bacteria(read carefully all links).
One could simply add some ammonia(source) back to water(again IMO)? to feed the bacteria.

I also think that bacteria dying quickly is a fairy tale told to children!

"It takes as long to walk out of the woods as it did to walk in!"

True scientific study has actually shown bacteria(UNLIKE MANY DISEASES) do go dormant,and can much more quickly be "revived" then "created".
Rant?
Everyone with common sense "treats " their water.
If that is the question then they have fooled us all IMO!
 
I will*note that Tetra says*any*water conditioner that removes chloramine*(and as far as I know all of them do) will cause SafeStart to fail. So it seems to me that it is not the ammonia detoxing ability of Prime, but the chloramine removing abilty that causes SafeStart to fail.
It (Prime) seems it may interact incorrectly with the already "stabilized" ammonia and/or stabilizing agent in TSS, causing the ammonia to become unusable.

I will say, and stand by, that I have started several tanks now with small seeded filter media and TSS/Marineland Aquarium Bacteria/Biospira and have yet to have any issues at all.

Jesse
 
Chloramine is chlorine binded to ammonia(prolongs stability issues of only chlorine).
Not all water treatments do deal with chloramine.
Again(first WHERE IS JEN?) and the "water treatments" deal with ammonia according to all links,NOT the bacteria.
I leave tanks empty for 30+ days sometimes and you know what?
When I want to re stock them I need to pull almost all water as my nitrAtes are still thriving ,with 0 ammonia or nitrItes.
I don't feed empty tanks ANYMORE!
And my sponge filters work "endlessly"!
I change enough water thank you!
I think TSS is a good product.
I think seachem offers some high quality products also.
I bet they wouldn't say the same of each other(Hint/Hint) ?
 
Hate it when it does that :)


Kind of need Caliban or Threnjen to wade in as they have done more research :)

I think imo, imo...

1) first priority is fish. Especially as these are 4 neon tetras who are not the most hardy of fish for cycling. Monitor ammonia and do water changes as needed with the water conditioner you have. Forget the bacteria saga at this point.

2) bacteria in a bottle speed up the cycle (when they work). So I consider it a bonus if they help establish the cycle faster but it will establish regardless (assuming water changes maintain reasonable ph and fish waste provides any other nutrients they need). So worse case is you will be doing point 1 for normal 4 to 8 weeks say.

3) bacteria in a bottle - rarely seem to cause an issue. Same with water conditioners.

I can get my head around the idea that maybe TSS shouldn't be dosed within 24hrs after prime (I think it was) as they would be mainly free-floating at this stage and there could be some bad interaction.

I'm bemused on how as to date I can't find anything solid on this and would like to see a good link spelling out why but I can get my head around it as a possibility.

In that case I'd dose TSS when I could fit it into the water change schedule (not the other way around).
 
I saw the bat signal, do I have to read this thread now? But it's six pages long... waaaah....

Better get to it
 
Oh man it would take me ages to rummage around in my (disorganized) links to find enough stuff about this to bring it all to a cohesive conclusion. And my own memory is so spotty and it has been ages since I was reading up on all this stuff. :hide:

First @Op, don't worry so much, seems like everything is fine. Just do water changes when you need to, sounds like your tank is cycling. :) There is nothing to give up on! Everything sounds good!
At this point I think the discussion has just turned into a dissection of TSS, yah?

Here's stuff I DO know is true:


  • Prime/Dechlor doesn't do anything to your bacteria directly.

  • Prime doesn't remove or "kill" ammonia. It chemically binds it into ammonium but the bond is unstable and breaks down in about 24 hours and the ammonium will become ammonia again (as dictated by your pH). However the mechanism for how it does this is not divulged by Seachem.

  • Bacteria do not distinguish between NH3/NH4 (ammonia and ammonium) as a food source. They don't care.
  • Ammonia/Ammonium is related to your pH. They are basically the same thing which is why the test kit tests for the sum of both. Insert science stuff here.
  • Bacteria will survive a very long time without a food source, as stated by others in this thread. They are not fragile flowers. Remember, bacteria have lived on this earth for far longer than the wimpy humans :lol:

Here are things I think I remember correctly but would need to hunt out links to confirm:


  • The bacteria in the bottle is not the same bacteria that grows in our filters (autotrophic vs heterotrophic rings a bell) and it doesn't actually colonize your filter
  • HOWEVER, studies have shown that even though it is NOT the same type of bacteria, a bacterial supplement DOES speed up the cycle. I recall how/why being inconclusive in the study(ies) I read about this, but it was still true.
  • Overly high levels of ammonia will kill bacteria - this is a myth that has generally been debunked by science at our ammonia levels. Source needs citation and idk where my citation is, meh. Basically our tanks don't get high enough ammonia to be a problem to our bacteria, basically ever.
Dubious claims made by manufacturers in this thread include:

  • A product that locks up ammonia will kill bacteria indirectly by removing their food. Is this because autotrophs and heterotrophs DO distinguish between NH3 and NH4 as a food source? That would be the thing to google-fu. Otherwise, I see no valid reason why this would happen.
I wasn't very helpful here. The claims made by Tetra make me shake my head but at present I don't have the citations to back up my skepticism. So although I made a face and shook my head, I didn't actually have anything very useful to say.

If I get motivated I will go link hunting. Maybe organize my mega-folder of aquarium links ::sigh::
 
Last edited:
I give up - it's tit for tat. I can see several old threads where tetra state it is a problem but nothing I'm really happy with repeating.

I do wonder if there was misinformation out there at the time from the companies themselves and now we understand their products better.

For the OP you could ask tetra again and then really press them for the science behind the answer. If they don't carry a warning on the bottle label I'm in the dubious camp still but open-minded.

Edit - or if someone had say a well organised folder of links who knows what exciting and untold riches would pop up!
 
Lol!!! That was pretty late last night. I am not sure when i am going to have time, you can't even imagine what a monumental task it will be, my folder has like 300 links. I will try but it's gonna take a while :D

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Aquarium Advice mobile app
 
Copied some text out - this conclusion that the bacteria will starve just isn't right but I wonder how well tetra understood the seachem prime product back then?

I would be regularly shifting any ammonia to ammonium and vice versa everyday when I run co2 injection. No issues.

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/a...e-archive/17805-dont-use-prime-bio-spira.html

'Ammonia detoxifiers bind up ammonia by converting it to ammonium, NH3 is ammonia NH4+ is ammonium. Ammonium is not toxic to fish but will only stay in this form when PH is low or when a binding agent is used. It will eventually turn back to ammonia, usually after a couple of days. This conversion makes break down by the bacteria in bio-spira impossible. This can starve out the bacteria. This is mentioned on the packaging and is the most often cause of poor performance. '
 
Thanks so much for all the info. At this point, I still have a decent reading of nitrates (5.0) but for over a week now I can't get ammonia to stop climbing. I'm still doing water changes using prime to condition. I obviously have bacteria since I have nitrates.

Fish are showing no signs of stress at all, which I know is good. I just can't wrap my head around why the bacteria isn't decreasing the ammonia.


I know I am not over feeding. I give them a single tiny pinch of flakes once a day.


I rinsed my filter media in the dirty water that I siphoned out and when I put it back in the filter I had white stringy stuff floating around in the tank. Is that my bacteria!?
 
If the fish seem fine, maybe there is something wrong with your test kit. Generally fish in ammonia will not be acting fine. Have you checked the expiration date on the test kit? Just for fyi, I have used Dr. Tim's One and Only for bacteria, and have never had any problems.
 
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