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Old 01-10-2004, 08:32 AM   #1
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The Fertility Clinic Needs Some Pointers

Oi. Must be something in the water. I got up this morning, and hubby told me to look in the ram tank. Apparently they've been talking to the angels, cause we have eggs! Lil buggers have been in there a week and already they're laying. Ack! I noticed yesterday it seemed 2 of them had breeding tubes down, but figured they were too young...guess not huh.

So I have NO idea what to do; all my breeding research were for angelfish LOL I'm going to go do some online searching, but if anyone has any suggestions I would GREATLY appreciate it!! I don't expect this batch to make it; heck, I don't even know if the eggs are fertilized, but I can see this will be happening again *grin*

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Old 01-10-2004, 08:44 AM   #2
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Hmmm, must be something about you Alli . Apparently you have this effect on fish (LOL). Congrats and good luck. I sense more tanks in your future.

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Old 01-10-2004, 09:12 AM   #3
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*laffs*

I may not have a choice Brian; what if the fry survive? LOL Imagine me trying to place angelfish AND ram fry here in my apt...I may have to give up bathing for a while
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Old 01-10-2004, 10:53 AM   #4
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Allivymar....

Just let the parents do their thing. If they can manage to raise the fry to a decent size then you can net them out. I can't imagine any lfs that wouldn't be interested in taking some young Rams off your hands....they usually sell pretty fast!
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Old 01-10-2004, 11:05 AM   #5
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I am definitely lazy...erm...into parent raising (*grin* the less I have to do the better), so I have no intention of pulling the eggs atm. I do figure, since its the first breeding the eggs likely aren't fertile/they will likely be eaten anyway.

I just don't quite know what to do now. Water change daily (ugh)? I read somewhere ram fry are really sensitive to nitrates and one wants to keep the levels as close to 0 as possible; thing is, I only read it in one place. And what to feed em? Are they too small for BBS (baby brine shrimp)? While a lot of these questions will likely be moot this go around, I'd like to be prepared for the next batch.

And anyone have any idea if breeding angels and breeding rams are a bad thing in the same tank? I do want to move the breeding pair of angels into that tank (I have ANOTHER angel to move into the 55g - thanx Brian! - and I need to make room); I figured they would be able to parent raise in there, but with the rams breeding in there now I just don't know...
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Old 01-10-2004, 11:36 AM   #6
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Allivymar...

Having, in my ill-spent youth, bred and raised many Microgeophagus (Apistogramma) ramirezi, I can offer the following information based on my experience:

1) Rams have a reputation for being delicate and sensitive. I had great success with them as long as I kept them in a warm (80-84 degrees F), clean, well-planted tank with some rock structures for hiding places. I've heard recently about Rams being sensitive to nitrate levels but I can't comment on that observation other than to say that back when I was raising them I didn't have a nitrate test kit (nobody cared about 'cycling' back then anyway). I did 25% water changes every two weeks and kept my pH at about 6.5.

2) I kept my M ramirezi breeding pairs in 5- or 10-gallon tanks, usually with very few tankmates other than a Corydoras or Otocinclus clean-up crew. However...I don't see any major problems if you decide to keep the Rams and Angelfish in the same tank as long as there is plenty of room for them to set up their own breeding territories. As you know....they choose different types of areas for breeding so they shouldn't compete for territory overly much.

3) Daily water changes?? Perish the thought!!! It sounds to me like the water you have in the tank makes the adults perfectly happy and the fry should have no trouble adjusting to it.

4) The small fry should be able to handle brine shrimp nauplii pretty well. An 'infusoria' culture might come in handy. I had pretty good success with finely-ground flake food as well.
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Old 01-10-2004, 12:00 PM   #7
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Oooo this sounds doable!

The tank is a 25g show (tall tank), so there should be no overlap in terms of breeding territories. My concern was more the hormones raging thru the tank LOL You should see my other angels when the breeding pair lay; I have 2 that think its THEM breeding and every time the first pair lay, spend 2 days cleaning a piece of slate and aggressively chasing everyone off. Once the eggs are laid by the first pair, the other 2 forget what they were up to. 2 months of this and they have yet to lay a single egg, which is why I think its the influence of the mated pair. I'd hate to have both breeding pairs too busy chasing each other around to actually lay.

And whew! I dreaded the thought of daily water changes there too (I'm having algae bloom probs in the 55g). I'm relieved THAT won't be an issue.

I'm probably jynxing myself, but I am pleased these guys are laying in this tank. This is the "death tank" that took 6 rams and a bulldog plec a month and a half ago.
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Old 01-11-2004, 06:23 PM   #8
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Omg omg omg! We have wigglers already!!

I thought the eggs too 48-72 hours to hatch. Guess not! They started hatching about an hour ago, and the adults are moving them as they hatch to one of the depressions they dug. How cool!!!

Got one really good pic of the mom (the dad? LOL) and the wigglers:
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Old 01-11-2004, 06:57 PM   #9
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Congrats Allivymar!! Nice looking Ram, by the way. The little ones should be gorgeous!
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Old 01-11-2004, 10:02 PM   #10
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Congrats Alli! This is your second bunch of wigglers, that is supremely exciting
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Old 01-11-2004, 10:32 PM   #11
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Cool! Ive never seen the german rams with bottom fins so red before. That is definitely a nice strain. My brother said he wouldnt mind a male from those to go with his female When mine had eggs, I noticed after about 2 and a half weeks, It looked like they got tired of raising them and began eating them. All I can say is keep a close watch for that day!
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Old 01-12-2004, 11:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MantisX
Cool! Ive never seen the german rams with bottom fins so red before.
That's 'cuz they're not German Rams--they're Bolivian Rams!

Alli--I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo jealous!!!

What are your water parameters (PH/KH/GH)? What temp is your tank? Can you see any difference between the two?

I want baby rams!!!
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Old 01-12-2004, 11:50 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame_X
Quote:
Originally Posted by MantisX
Cool! Ive never seen the german rams with bottom fins so red before.
That's 'cuz they're not German Rams--they're Bolivian Rams!
Whoops! Now I want bolivians. Even the one in my pet store didnt have any red. I thought only gold rams did the red.
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Old 01-13-2004, 02:59 AM   #14
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Congrats on the wigglers Alli. How are they doing?


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Old 01-13-2004, 08:14 AM   #15
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I can take NO claim to responsibility on these guys LOL They are in what was the death tank a month or so ago, and after leaving it fallow for a month I thought I'd try again with rams (as Madame_X knows, the first 6 keeled) but just hoped they'd survive; these babies are quite the surprise. They are actually in QT in what will be their home tank as I have no other fish in there. The pH is around 7, water temp around 80F and my tap water is fairly soft. And since I only had em a week before they started makin whoopee, I don't even know if my parameters had anything to do with it LOL they prob were just waiting to dig a few depressions.

Theres more, but I've got to go; part 2 later LOL
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Old 01-13-2004, 12:44 PM   #16
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Hmmm...

(Pondering the thought of turning her QT tank into a home for a couple new rams to see if she gets lucky...)

I probably won't be adding any fish to my other tanks any time soon. So I REALLY don't need a QT tank right now.

Of course as soon as I did that, I'd get a sick fish.

Seriously though, since added REAL CO2 to my 30 gallon, the PH is down to 7.0, and since I mix 1/2 RO water, the KH is only around 5-6. So I guess if they're not breeding, I probably don't have a pair.
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Old 01-13-2004, 01:01 PM   #17
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Ok, part 2 LOL

I did NOT expect these guys to breed. Not only because I just got them, but because they're pretty young. All of em are around 1 inch long not including tails (my new ghost shrimp are about the same size!). I didn't think they were mature enough to be honest.

I did however, notice a LOT of chasing around once they settled in, and the day before the eggs were laid noticed 3 (!) of the rams all had girlie bits showing. Do you see any sign of breeding tubes Madame? I have to admit, it is they only way I can tell the diff with my guys; they aren't even old enough for the male to get those supposed extensions on the tail fin, and BOTH have a tall 2nd spine on the dorsal (I thought only males did).

How planted is the tank, and whats the substrate (I forget)? I did read thats pretty important to these lil buggers. My tank is fairly well planted, and has a sand substrate. It is obviously important to em as they have dug out a number of depressions in the sand, and all of the depressions are under plants.

Also keep in mind they are the only ones in the tank (the 4 rams). I wonder if thats part of it as well, as they don't feel threatened by anything (and ignore the shrimp). We missed the actual laying completely; just woke up to the eggs on the rock. I wonder if they are laying and the plec may be eating eggs before you see em?

Oh, and apparently they like a flat horizontal surface to lay on (so I've read) although my guys layed in a depression in the side of a large rock.

Lastly, they have been getting a pretty wide variety of foods; flake, pellet, etc, but I noticed frozen bloodworms go over VERY well. They layed right after the first time I gave em bloodworms (dunno of theres a connection).
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Old 01-13-2004, 03:52 PM   #18
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*giggles*

A brief update; they're having their first fight LOL She has dug a new depression in the sand and is trying to move the wigglers to there. Things is she brings them over, he brings em back to the original depression. I know, I'm horrible, but its pretty **** funny LOL I can see the 2 of em arguing over which is the better location LOL
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Old 01-13-2004, 05:45 PM   #19
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lol, atleast they want what is best for the little ones!

Congrates on your wigglers! That is really awesome!
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Old 01-13-2004, 05:50 PM   #20
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And here is today's pic, complete with the proud parents (they've resolved their differences for the moment LOL).
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