thinking about buying a microscope

[Guest]

I want to learn more about fish disease so i can better fight it in my tanks in the future. I am also just something of a science nut, so i thought it would be nice to have one.

here is the one i am looking at: http://cgi.ebay.com/COMPOUND-BIO-MI...20605397QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3142QQcmdZViewItem

1.) is it crazy to consider doing gentle mucus scrapes on my fish if they are sick to see if i can find a cause?

2.) Does anyone know about microscopes?

3.) would this serve my purposes?

4.) does anyone else have a microscope they use to diagnose thier fish?

5.)where do you find comparison slides online?

6.) Has it helped you save any fish before?
Thanks muchly.

 

[fish_4_all]

After thinking about it for a while, I just can't come up with a reason why it would be much help with your fish unless you were able to catch something the day of the first infestation. Thats a lot of testing, a lot of scraping and a lot of time to try and use it that way. You can use it and give it a try but for the purpose of early diagnosis, I just don't know.

As for the type, If you want to do that much scientific research with your fish and enjoy it that much, get a double eye piece model with a better resolution. There are many models out there that will serve your ideas much better. If you get one, enjoy it, they are a lot of fun. As for specimens of parasites and other fish ailments, go to a University Web site and email some teachers and professors and see what you can get from them. The University of Washington would be a good place to try and not just because I live in the state. They are very good and are very happy to help, at least they have been for me.

 

[BrianNY]

A microscope would be practical for serious breeders only. In most cases fish have to be sacrificed and dissected in order to obtain slide specimens. The few maladies that can be diagnosed from mucus scrapings hardly make obtaining a microscope worthwhile.

If you're serious, the book "Discus Health" by Untergasser has a detailed chapter on the use of a microscope for diagnosing a wide variety of illnesses. A knowledge of fish anatomy, and some practical experience using a scalpel on such small creatures would be advised before purchasing a microscope.

 

[JDogg]

i agree with brian and fish-4-all, i do not see much use for a microscope in "every-day" fish keeping.

the microscope you linked to is ok, it is very similar to the kind i keep for my science students, it is a decent student microscope for introducing people to using one. it is not however the type I would get for my personal use... a decent microscope in my opinion will run you at least $300 unless you can find a good deal, also keep in mind microscope do not real become obsolete, even a used one can be a great microscope if it is kept up.

if you are still thinking of getting one, i would not, but that is just me... this would be a good one i think...
https://secure9.nexternal.com/share...45&Target=products.asp&s=gaw&kw=[microscopes]

 

[Guest]

i think my rationale is that an unknown illness killed a few of my favorite fish a few weeks ago. the fish showed no signs at all of any discernable illness, and their deaths seemed slow and painful. nothing i did helped them. i tried treating for parasite, ich, bacteria and fungus one at a time and nothing worked.

i want to know in incidents like this what killed them so i can fight it in the future.

 

[hc8719]

dont get a microscope, why?

so ok, you put a sample under, look at it... now what?

 

[Guest]

everyone sounds so encouraging. a microscope is a great tool for what you want to do, and i say go for it. there is a lot you can learn from your ideas, and they sound like good ones. you dont need a rationale for something that is interesting and will improve your knowledge.

 

[BrianNY]

We aren't saying that knowing how to use a microscope isn't interesting aquarious. Fishypeanut wants to use it to help identify problems and cure fish. That's not practical.

Fish, like most animals can suffer from a vast array of illnesses. Not every illness is treatable. At present there is no cure for most of the viral infections fish get. Plus, many fish deaths are due to diet, food poisoning, stress from being picked on. In this case the end doesn't justify the means.

 

[malkore]

And a microscope won't reveal basic genetic problems often caused by repeated inbreeding of captive raised fish.

I think Fishy's head and compassion are in the right place...but without proper education on what is 'bad' to see in a mucal scrape vs. the 'normal' bacteria and protoza you'd see, its just guess work and not real practical.

If you get the schooling to use the microscope in an effective way, then I think its a fine idea.

 

[fish_4_all]

I think you should go for it. But like it has been said, diagnosis is going to be tough but with the higher power microscope you will eventually be bale to identify just about anything. I have one and I have never looked at a fish anything under it but I should. I thought about using it to look at ambiotic fluid but my wifes water never broke at home so I was out of luck.

If you do decide to get one, I just recommend you get a good one. And $200+ for a descent one isn't unusual.

 

[lyquidphyre]

wouldn't you have to stain whatever you wanted to look at? (which is a whole other matter to learn/tackle).

Unless you know what you are looking for and know how to properly stain/fix the slide then it probably won't do you any good.

However, being a bio major, I advocate microscopes because they are an amazing thing to have.. but you can't always just plop something on a slide and investigate w/o certain preparations.

 

[Guest]

wouldn't you have to stain whatever you wanted to look at? (which is a whole other matter to learn/tackle).

not true, im no biologist and i never have a problem staining a sample or finding something without stain. but it does help at certain times.

Unless you know what you are looking for and know how to properly stain/fix the slide then it probably won't do you any good.

not true either. if we always knew what we were looking for, there would be no new discoveries, including personal ones. the people who invented and developed microscopes had no idea what they were looking for, but thankfuly they looked anyways.

However, being a bio major, I advocate microscopes because they are an amazing thing to have.. but you can't always just plop something on a slide and investigate w/o certain preparations.

yes you can.

 

[lyquidphyre]

wouldn't you have to stain whatever you wanted to look at? (which is a whole other matter to learn/tackle).

not true, im no biologist and i never have a problem staining a sample or finding something without stain. but it does help at certain times.

Unless you know what you are looking for and know how to properly stain/fix the slide then it probably won't do you any good.

not true either. if we always knew what we were looking for, there would be no new discoveries, including personal ones. the people who invented and developed microscopes had no idea what they were looking for, but thankfuly they looked anyways.

However, being a bio major, I advocate microscopes because they are an amazing thing to have.. but you can't always just plop something on a slide and investigate w/o certain preparations.

yes you can.

In this case, if you don't know what you are looking for or what you are looking at, you would have a difficult time telling what is supposed to be there and what isn't supposed to be there, when diagnosing a fish.

Also, yah.. you can look at ANYTHING under a microscope if you want to, technically, but you can't always find what you are looking for by just sticking it under a microscope.

 

[petunia100]

There is nothing wrong with being curious, and if you are interested in something by all means persue it. Although many people have given reasons why it might not be practical to buy a microscope or even persue identifying specimens, I myself am often curious about why fish die. You definately don't know if you don't try and you may learn something interesting by giving it a go. If you are interested in fish diseases or preparation of tissue samples try contacting a local university. They could give you direction and helpful information, comming from an academic setting myself professors usually enjoy talking about their interests very much, and if they don't want to hear from you they won't respond or will tell you they don't have time for an amateur. I would imagine that in Florida especially there is an interest in aquatic sciences. Talk to people both in this forum and outside of it and if it sounds interesting go for it.

 

[jsoong]

Here's my 2 cent's worth:

Microscope is fun to have, and you might learn something. However, unless you are a trained microscopist, it will not be terribly useful as a diagnostic tool.

For the average joe, the most you can get from having a microscope is identifying surface parasites (like ich) from scrapings. You'll be hard pressed to see bacteria or fungi with a cheap microscope without staining, much less identifying what you have. <Back in school, we have $5000 microscopes & I am just barely able to see bacteria, and maybe identify a few species. Identification of bacteria these days is by cultures, we've pretty much given up on microscopic identification as too unreliable.> You will not see anything smaller than big bacteria (ie fish tb, or any virus) without an electron microscope.

 

[hc8719]

Here's my 2 cent's worth:

Microscope is fun to have, and you might learn something. However, unless you are a trained microscopist, it will not be terribly useful as a diagnostic tool.

For the average joe, the most you can get from having a microscope is identifying surface parasites (like ich) from scrapings. You'll be hard pressed to see bacteria or fungi with a cheap microscope without staining, much less identifying what you have. <Back in school, we have $5000 microscopes & I am just barely able to see bacteria, and maybe identify a few species. Identification of bacteria these days is by cultures, we've pretty much given up on microscopic identification as too unreliable.> You will not see anything smaller than big bacteria (ie fish tb, or any virus) without an electron microscope.

really, i got a little kit that had a little microscope, and it sucked.

then in biology, anatomy, and microbiology i had to use $7000 dollar microscopes, and i still had a hard time correctly identifying bacteria and different cells

 

[Guest]

i started taking samples of filter floss, bacteria suppliment, etc, and i dont have a clue what im looking for. since i started i have learned a great deal about the nitrogen cycle, bacteria, and now i am researching other microbes in an aquarium to learn about the things i am looking at. i looked first then asked questions later. i even started another thread about discoveries i made and shared them, but now im wondering....

by researching what you find and learning, anything is possible. an attempt to answer the original questions ;

1. no it isnt crazy and with research, you might find answers to external parasites or other organisms, including safe ones and deadly ones.

2. i have one that will go to 1200x power, but it takes getting used to. you dont have to buy a brand new one, maybe find a used model.

3. anything that helps you learn serves your purpose. it might not help with all diseases but it is a good tool when used with research.

4. i just started and havnt had a fish death in a while, but i am going to use mine to learn more. i know gill scrapings are important too and will tell you things. research is the magic word.

5. i have looked for comparison slides without luck. instead i look up what im trying to learn or suspect, there is always an answer and i know if i am on the right track.

6. no, but thats not to say it never will.

your welcome muchly.

 

[odessadude]

Wow! Someone asks an opinion about buying and using a microscope and is given many reasons by other posters why not to. This is my take and is in agreement with many others on this thread.

Buy the microscope and educate yourself. I agree to get the stereo binocular type, they are alot easier to use. Buy a good book like Dr. Rudiger Riehl's Aquarium Atlas. In the back of this book is many drawings and photos of actual, everyday fish diseases. There are probably many others like it and many more that are far more informative.

Go for it!

You only live once and you may as well go out with as much knowledge as you can gain. You never know, with a purchase like this and your own research, you might become an expert in the field.

Don't ever listen to those who discourage your dreams!

 

[Guest]

Well...

I do know how to stain using M.Blue, Iodine and C.Violet. I took some biology in college...and did well.

My intention was to buy an inexpensive microscope to brush up my skills a bit and be sure I had some idea what I was doing prior to going out and spending $200+ on one that i might prove useless due to the time it has been since I last used one.

That is why i chose the one listed. Cheap, and seemed easy enough to use.

Also, I figured I could learn. I am not looking to be a doctor or make a fool out of experienced Ichthiologists, but thought I could at least possibly find microscopic trends, and possibly identify some bacteria or protozoans that may be causing mystery deaths, and give myself at least a direction to go in to help my fish when they grow ill without visible symptoms that are easily diagnosed.

My intention is not to just shoot a slide under a microscope and Voila! have a cure for my fish, but to try to learn more about what makes them sick. I planned to start my research on fish who passed on already. I also planned to take slides of illnesses I could readily identify with the naked eye and diagram them under a microscope so that I could use them for comparison. I planned to read, and research. Not just be Dr. Fish-whisperer.

But thanks for the advice. I guess I will just stick it out hoping for more visible clues as to why they die.

 

[lyquidphyre]

I think if you really want a microscope, you should get one. They are wonderful things to have. I personally would love to look at stuff in my tank under one, but for the fun of just looking not for diagnosing something specific.

Also, if you do know how to stain, that is a bonus.

I didn't mean to sound negative or anything about it, it would just be a bummer to spend X amount of dollars thinking you might be able to see a specific thing, and then not be able to.