This can't be normal

[RackinRocky]

I have a 55g, and all my Rainbowfish are in one corner, while my one angel is in the opposite corner. The Rainbows are "twitching" now and then. I only have one male. The other four are females. Is this some kind of breeding thing, or is there something wrong with them?

I had a Cherry barb with ich in there, but removed that fish to be treated in iso. My angel normally swims around, but is staying much of the time in one spot. I see no white spots on any of them (yet) and they are still eating. Parameters are all good. No ammonia or nitrites, and nitrates are 10. PH is always 7.6. I do a 30% water change once a week with a good gravel siphon as well. They have a varied diet of frozen, pellets and flakes. They just aren't acting normal. The Rainbows act almost annoyed. Any ideas?

 

[dalto]

You cannot isolate a fish that has Ich. Because of the way the Ich lifecycle works once a single fish has it, the whole tank has it and needs to be treated.

If you are positive it is really Ich you should treat both tanks for Ich.

 

[Ricky 1]

If it is Ich this link will tell you how to go on, it is important to know when to treat it Cause, Treatment, and Prevention of Ich in Freshwater Fish

 

[dalto]

That article from drs foster and smith above has some pretty strange advice in it. Removing all the fish and raising the temperature is just moving the problem around.

I would review this one instead.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Incorrect, removing the fish breaks the life cycle of ich. If no fish are present ich cannot complete the life cycle and will die, the second free swimming stage must find a fish host within 24-48 hours or it will perish.

Remove fish treat separate, isolate display tank. Works every time.
Heat will speed up the life cycle of ich to the point that reproduction stops.

Its important to know that some fish would perish in the conditions needed to prevent reproduction using heat alone, in these cases you are left with few alternatives.

Medication only attacks the free swimming stages, the actual white spots are pretty tough and meds do little against this stage.
Heat is only really useful against the second stage, this is the stage that multiplies. In between these you have free swimming stages, meds are only useful against these free swimming stages.

So a severely infected fish put in isolation and medicated, the outcome is that when the spots burst, the swimming stage is released into a watercourse that should hopefully eradicate it before it reaches stage 2, that's when serious outbreaks can occur, heat is the trick for this stage but I have never heat treated.

The isolation should help to prevent the disease spreading as it is possible to to catch early so to speak.

If both tanks have fish, medicate or heat accordingly.

 

[dalto]

Incorrect, removing the fish breaks the life cycle of ich. If no fish are present ich cannot complete the life cycle and will die, the second free swimming stage must find a fish host within 24-48 hours or it will perish.

I am not saying it won't work. But it seems like it would rarely(never?) be the best solution. Ich is easily treated with heat alone or with salt if you cannot treat with high heat. More fish than people think can tolerate high heat for a short period of time. The same is true of the relatively low doses of salt needed to treat Ich. Even if you want to use meds, why stress the fish further by moving them twice? There are modern Ich medications that are safe to use in your display tank.

 

[aqua_holic]

Incorrect, removing the fish breaks the life cycle of ich. If no fish are present ich cannot complete the life cycle and will die, the second free swimming stage must find a fish host within 24-48 hours or it will perish.



Remove fish treat separate, isolate display tank. Works every time.

Heat will speed up the life cycle of ich to the point that reproduction stops.



Its important to know that some fish would perish in the conditions needed to prevent reproduction using heat alone, in these cases you are left with few alternatives.



Medication only attacks the free swimming stages, the actual white spots are pretty tough and meds do little against this stage.

Heat is only really useful against the second stage, this is the stage that multiplies. In between these you have free swimming stages, meds are only useful against these free swimming stages.



So a severely infected fish put in isolation and medicated, the outcome is that when the spots burst, the swimming stage is released into a watercourse that should hopefully eradicate it before it reaches stage 2, that's when serious outbreaks can occur, heat is the trick for this stage but I have never heat treated.



The isolation should help to prevent the disease spreading as it is possible to to catch early so to speak.



If both tanks have fish, medicate or heat accordingly.

Yes parasites need a host to survive so removing the fish from the tank will kill off the parasites in the tank in several days. But you still have to treat the fish or you'll just be reintroducing it to the show tank. The only reason why it would be worthwhile to remove the fish from the tank would be to prevent staining from medications. However, since medications are not necessary for treating ich, removing the fish is also unnecessary.

I've given heat treatments to several dozen various species, including cold water, high oxygen and sensitive fish. Haven't found a species yet that couldn't handle the heat treatment, and I treat at 88-89.

Treatments are only effective during the parasites free swimming stage, no matter what treatment is used. That is the only stage in which the parasite can be killed. Like was said, if one fish has it they all need to be treated, as does the tank itself, so why deal with it in two tanks when you can just treat the one and be done with it?

 

[Ricky 1]

So let me think about this, if we move all the fish out, which would be very stressful not only for the fish but for me also as I have lots of ground dwellers, I would have to virtually strip the tank, and set about treating 2 tanks instead of one.........am I wrong??

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I am not saying it won't work. But it seems like it would rarely(never?) be the best solution. Ich is easily treated with heat alone or with salt if you cannot treat with high heat. More fish than people think can tolerate high heat for a short period of time. The same is true of the relatively low doses of salt needed to treat Ich. Even if you want to use meds, why stress the fish further by moving them twice? There are modern Ich medications that are safe to use in your display tank.

Separating severely infected fish is good practice.

That's all.

Moving a fish into another tank that is identical is easy using water and some filter media, some people just use the tank water and an air stone. It is already stressed granted but you are protecting your remaining stock, the spots on the fish potentially harbour thousands+ more during the reproduction phase.
If you can't heat, it's good to know!
Yes I use meds as necessary I'm not against that, fish without spots are not infected until they start showing signs, by which time you are on the case!

In a day or two, that fish will have no spots, then it can be returned, here you isolate the ich again. This phase isn't looking for a fish.

Personally, after stock losses the first time, I choose to isolate obviously infected fish.
Yes medicate the other tank but meds are not 100% effective! I'm sure it says, you may need to repeat the course of treatment on the label.

Adding salt to the water, salt depending, can change the water which could stress the fish much more than the catch/shift.
Hyper salinity is different, I'm sure they use hypo salinity in salt water CI.
But it's a shock dip I think.

If a severely infected fish dies in your tank it may be 8-10 hours before you get back and notice. Dead fish are fish food. Fins go first!

That's why I think it's good

 

[aqua_holic]

Ich is by far the easiest ailment in fish keeping to cure. No need to make it more difficult. If you were to try just using heat, I'm confident that you will feel differently about all this.

 

[Fishfur]

One hopes it is one of the common strains of Ich, not one of the resistant strains. I think it's true that common Ich is very treatable, but there have been more reports in the past few years of Ich strains that are extremely heat and salt resistant.

These strains can take a lot longer to get rid of. Meds are sometimes necessary to fight the resistant strains.

In such cases, isolating infested fish will help to reduce the number of parasites in a tank, so I think it's worth doing for those that are most affected.

Siphoning along the bottom during water changes will also suck out the Ich life stage, which I forget the name of, sorry, that's sitting on the bottom, waiting to metamorphose. That also helps reduce the number of organisms you're fighting, and the fewer Ich there are, the less damage to the fish.

 

[bud29]

Only isolating fish severely infected with ich is a practice that will lead to much more treatment and work than necessary. Doing a full treatment on the main tank will eradicate the parasite completely from your system, and you won't have to do any more treatment unless it is reintroduced by means of new inhabitants, cross contamination, etc. Work smarter, not harder.

 

[dalto]

Only isolating fish severely infected with ich is a practice that will lead to much more treatment and work than necessary. Doing a full treatment on the main tank will eradicate the parasite completely from your system, and you won't have to do any more treatment unless it is reintroduced by means of new inhabitants, cross contamination, etc. Work smarter, not harder.

+1

If you are isolating the fish with visible Ich but not the others in the tank those other fish are more than likely still carrying the parasite. You are just waiting on a stressful situation to send your tank into another outbreak. If you treat the whole tank it will be gone for good unless you introduce new Ich.

 

[Ricky 1]

I can't stop scratching reading all this.........lol

 

[J.Mcpeak]

+1

If you are isolating the fish with visible Ich but not the others in the tank those other fish are more than likely still carrying the parasite. You are just waiting on a stressful situation to send your tank into another outbreak. If you treat the whole tank it will be gone for good unless you introduce new Ich.

Yes treat the tank. Infected fish will have a spot or more. These are normally ok using a course of meds. Severe cases by my experience normally die. It's easier to find a dead fish in QT.
Personally I remove severely infected fish. I don't think it makes much extra work. I haven't had ich for such a long time. Since then I have learned about heat. Based on what I knew already and adding in heat, currently that's how I'd deal with it. Attack all elements. I've been at my new address for about 3-4 years and have had none while I've been here.

I have said, I have never used heat, I didn't know that it existed until roughly December time last year. I have said I will use it next time but for now I've been ok.

One hopes it is one of the common strains of Ich, not one of the resistant strains. I think it's true that common Ich is very treatable, but there have been more reports in the past few years of Ich strains that are extremely heat and salt resistant.

These strains can take a lot longer to get rid of. Meds are sometimes necessary to fight the resistant strains.

In such cases, isolating infested fish will help to reduce the number of parasites in a tank, so I think it's worth doing for those that are most affected.

Siphoning along the bottom during water changes will also suck out the Ich life stage, which I forget the name of, sorry, that's sitting on the bottom, waiting to metamorphose. That also helps reduce the number of organisms you're fighting, and the fewer Ich there are, the less damage to the fish.

So, back to my previous statement, what if you can't use heat? Maybe that is relevant. I'm in agreement with this but I haven't experienced it, I know of the rumour? Perhaps it is real.

That's what I'm saying, less obvious potential. Direct parasite reduction.
Maybe it is a waste of time? But that's how I do it!

 

[Fishfur]

Well, the resistant strain is not a myth. I've actually spoken to another hobbyist locally here who had the bad luck to get it with some fish he imported. It took many weeks to resolve and the losses were fairly high.

He kept thinking it had to be something else, because Ich, so far as he knew, doesn't take more than a month to fix.. but it was Ich and it did take that long.

Typically, people are told not to combine Ich treatments like the harsh copper based ones that were the only ones available at the time, with heat or salt, so he didn't try that. There's at least one med now that's supposed to be effective on the resistant strains, though I'd have to go look up something I saw on that to find out what it might be.

 

[aqua_holic]

I've had a heat resistant strain - the standard 86 did not work. Bumping it up to 88-89 did the trick though, which is why I always treat at that higher temp now.

 

[dalto]

So, back to my previous statement, what if you can't use heat? Maybe that is relevant. I'm in agreement with this but I haven't experienced it, I know of the rumour? Perhaps it is real.

As far as I know you can always use heat. It is just a question of how much. I believe that even the resistant strains will not survive at 92F. If you can't use heat, use salt. Even if you do use meds I would still treat in the main tank as long as the meds aren't nuclear.

That's what I'm saying, less obvious potential. Direct parasite reduction.
Maybe it is a waste of time? But that's how I do it!

Direct parasite reduction just isn't very helpful in the case of Ich. Unless you somehow remove the fish before the Ich enters the water(which is highly unlikely) there is no benefit unless you remove all the fish at once.

 

[aqua_holic]

I meant if you QT any new fish you buy for a reasonable length of time, and it has Ich, or anything else untoward, you won't get whatever it is in your main tank. Yes, you'd have to treat the QT, but that's a lot less aggro than treating a big main tank.

But you're right, it's not the worst thing to deal with by any means.

It's really the same difference to treat any tank, quarantine or show, big or small.


Just keeping a fish in quarantine for a period of time is not enough to determine whether the fish is carrying the parasite. Not showing visible spots does not mean that the fish is not infected, so if one wanted to make sure that they were not introducing the parasite, a mandatory treatment is needed.

 

[RackinRocky]

WHEW! I only posted this last night, and I log on tonight, and there are over 4 pages of replies! I can see the point each of you are making. Certain things make sense to me on both sides. Removing the fish, or not. Treating the main tank or not.

I, however, have a special case. I had columnaris in my main tank for a long time, and lost many, many fish. This has been the longest space of time I've had without it (nearly 5 months now). In the past, it's come back over and over, and once, 4 months elapsed between outbreaks. AND I hadn't added any new fish in between! Also, I have Mountain Cloud Minnows, which are sub-tropical (as you know) and I worry about the heat stressing them, even though it's been stated that they can take it. I just don't like making them miserable. I wouldn't want to be forced to stay in 120 degree heat, for instance. AND I also have Golden Dojo loaches and a Kuhli Loach in that tank, and I know how sensitive they are to meds and salt. Not to mention the last time I had ich, my plants nearly died, and have not been the same since.

Anyway, the main reason I didn't want to treat the main tank was because of the columnaris. I was terrified to bump up the temp for fear of encouraging another outbreak. So, as you can see, I'm in a quandary.

Latest update is the fish I isolated with my fiddler crabs is now gone. The crabs ate her! Yep, that's what it had to be, as there was no body to be found. Since the crabs don't get ich, I felt it was a good idea to put her in there, as the crabs are brackish. I've read before that fiddlers usually will not go for fish, but the crab tank has a low water level, and I'm sure they must have trapped her and she couldn't escape.

Today, all my fish are acting normal again. I think they were just ready to go to "bed" since it was time for it last night. They must have been tired, lol. No spots so far on any of the other fish, but it's only been a couple of days since I brought the fish with ich home, so I'll have to watch them carefully. Frankly, I don't know what in the world I'll do if they DO come down with ich. There are about 23 fish in that tank, and also the loaches, as I mentioned, and the threat of columnaris raising it's ugly head again. I'll be in big trouble. I'm just hoping it won't show up. I did cure ich on a Giant Danio by removing him from the tank and into iso for a week, with heat and salt. Put him back, and he was clear, and no one else got it. This was over a year ago. So I'll just have to hope none of the ich was at the stage yet to fall off into the water. Thanks so much for all the comments! Real food for thought!