This can't be normal, part 2 - QT debate

[Fishfur]

[Moderator edit Continuing post from this thread regarding fish possibly having Ich Part 1
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/this-cant-be-normal-323936-3.html#post3095289] ]

I will continue to pray I never have to deal with it myself. I've been fortunate so far and I'm careful too. QT is always the best preventive for things like this though.

 

[aqua_holic]

Quarantine will prevent an infected fish from spreading to the rest, but it doesn't do anything fr the infected fish you have in quarantine.

Ich is really so easy to treat..... You should be praying that THATS the disease you would have to treat versus all the others.

 

[Fishfur]

I meant if you QT any new fish you buy for a reasonable length of time, and it has Ich, or anything else untoward, you won't get whatever it is in your main tank. Yes, you'd have to treat the QT, but that's a lot less aggro than treating a big main tank.

But you're right, it's not the worst thing to deal with by any means.

 

[bud29]

I meant if you QT any new fish you buy for a reasonable length of time, and it has Ich, or anything else untoward, you won't get whatever it is in your main tank. Yes, you'd have to treat the QT, but that's a lot less aggro than treating a big main tank.

But you're right, it's not the worst thing to deal with by any means.

I agree, and I advocate proper QTing of new additions to avoid things such as ich getting in your main tank. However, if ich does find its way into the main tank, that's when I would recommend a full-tank treatment rather than individual QT.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I can't stop scratching reading all this.........lol

Well, the resistant strain is not a myth. I've actually spoken to another hobbyist locally here who had the bad luck to get it with some fish he imported. It took many weeks to resolve and the losses were fairly high.

He kept thinking it had to be something else, because Ich, so far as he knew, doesn't take more than a month to fix.. but it was Ich and it did take that long.

Typically, people are told not to combine Ich treatments like the harsh copper based ones that were the only ones available at the time, with heat or salt, so he didn't try that. There's at least one med now that's supposed to be effective on the resistant strains, though I'd have to go look up something I saw on that to find out what it might be.

BOOM


Thats a shame for keeper. Thanks for airing it though! (Important right here)
You may as well add what you know.
It could help someone!

 

[PNWaquarist]

One of the guys at my LFS told me a story about how he bought a ram from Petsmart, quarantined it for 3 weeks, and then moved it to his main tank after it showed no signs of disease. Not long after that, there was an outbreak of Ich in his main tank.

Even when you quarantine, you still run the risk.


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[aqua_holic]

One of the guys at my LFS told me a story about how he bought a ram from Petsmart, quarantined it for 3 weeks, and then moved it to his main tank after it showed no signs of disease. Not long after that, there was an outbreak of Ich in his main tank.

Even when you quarantine, you still run the risk.


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Not if you preemptively treat

 

[bud29]

One of the guys at my LFS told me a story about how he bought a ram from Petsmart, quarantined it for 3 weeks, and then moved it to his main tank after it showed no signs of disease. Not long after that, there was an outbreak of Ich in his main tank.

Even when you quarantine, you still run the risk.


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QTing is not foolproof, no doubt - however it is still best to be proactive, not reactive. Quarantining new additions doesn't take a whole lot of work and could potentially save the lives of fish in your main tank.

 

[aqua_holic]

Some people take more advantage of the quarantine period than others.

 

[Fishfur]

The trick with QT is to do it long enough. I aim for an absolute minimum of one month, and usually it's closer to two.

 

[aqua_holic]

Same here. A month is the minimum it takes for the treatments, and from there the fish is observed. Sometimes fish never make it out of quarantine.

 

[PNWaquarist]

QTing is not foolproof, no doubt - however it is still best to be proactive, not reactive. Quarantining new additions doesn't take a whole lot of work and could potentially save the lives of fish in your main tank.

Oh, I completely agree. I'm cycling one right now, in fact.

If you want to pre-treat in the QT, though, you're taking a shot in the dark. You need to know what your fish has to effectively treat it.


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[aqua_holic]

If you want to pre-treat in the QT, though, you're taking a shot in the dark. You need to know what your fish has to effectively treat it.


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We are talking about treating for parasites here, but I agree about administering meds like antibiotics. Since you cannot tell if a fish is carrying the parasite by looking at it, the shot in the dark is not treating for ich during quarantine.

 

[PNWaquarist]

We are talking about treating for parasites here, but I agree about administering meds like antibiotics. Since you cannot tell if a fish is carrying the parasite by looking at it, the shot in the dark is not treating for ich during quarantine.

And if the fish has columnaris instead of Ich, you've just stressed and weakened the fish with no benefit.


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[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

And if the fish has columnaris instead of Ich, you've just stressed and weakened the fish with no benefit.


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Turning the temp up that high with columnaris will likely kill the fish overnight. It's a good thing that columnaris and ich are so very different that they should never be confused for each other. But you do raise a good point - I can't tell you how many times I've seen ich threads where it was not ich. Always best to post a picture for proper identification prior to treatment.

Additionally, columnaris is one of a few diseases that can quickly wipe out a tank. Personally, I think turning the temp up to see if columnaris develops is a benefit, cause that's a disease that is really best treated in quarantine, and I would want to make sure that that's not introduced to my show tank.

The heat treatment more than makes sure that the fish are ich free - it helps to make sure that the fish are healthy. The increased temperature brings all sorts of problems to the forefront - problems that may otherwise go unnoticed. I WANT the fish to show me what they've got, if anything, so I can deal with it in quarantine. That is the point of quarantining, IMO.

 

[PNWaquarist]

Turning the temp up that high with columnaris will likely kill the fish overnight. It's a good thing that columnaris and ich are so very different that they should never be confused for each other. But you do raise a good point - I can't tell you how many times I've seen ich threads where it was not ich. Always best to post a picture for proper identification prior to treatment.

Additionally, columnaris is one of a few diseases that can quickly wipe out a tank. Personally, I think turning the temp up to see if columnaris develops is a benefit, cause that's a disease that is really best treated in quarantine, and I would want to make sure that that's not introduced to my show tank.

The heat treatment more than makes sure that the fish are ich free - it helps to make sure that the fish are healthy. The increased temperature brings all sorts of problems to the forefront - problems that may otherwise go unnoticed. I WANT the fish to show me what they've got, if anything, so I can deal with it in quarantine. That is the point of quarantining, IMO.

That's exactly my point: If high temperatures will kill a fish with columnaris overnight, you don't want to cank up the temperature just to see if visible symptoms develop. Treating for the wrong disease can stress the fish and make the situation worse. If you fish has something other than Ich, cranking up the heat will stress it, suppress its immune system and, if applicable, may allow the pathogen to reproduce more quickly.

After cycling my 29 gallon back in August, I added a shoal of Rummys. It took 5-6 weeks for one of them to exhibit symptoms of what looked like columnaris to me. While I was at the LFS to get antibiotics, I looked at their Rummy tank and, yep, there were others with the same symptoms now. I ended up euthanizing the sick Rummy but, after a double-dose of Furan-2, the rest of my tank was fine. I got lucky.

I'd say the best thing to do is just give the fish more time in quarantine. I'm probably going to give my next fish a good six weeks.

 

[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

That's exactly my point: If high temperatures will kill a fish with columnaris overnight, you don't want to cank up the temperature just to see if visible symptoms develop. Treating for the wrong disease can stress the fish and make the situation worse. If you fish has something other than Ich, cranking up the heat will stress it, suppress its immune system and, if applicable, may allow the pathogen to reproduce more quickly.

After cycling my 29 gallon back in August, I added a shoal of Rummys. It took 5-6 weeks for one of them to exhibit symptoms of what looked like columnaris to me. While I was at the LFS to get antibiotics, I looked at their Rummy tank and, yep, there were others with the same symptoms now. I ended up euthanizing the sick Rummy but, after a double-dose of Furan-2, the rest of my tank was fine. I got lucky

I'd say the best thing to do is just give the fish more time in quarantine. I'm probably going to give my next fish a good six weeks.

Columnaris can kill an aggressively infected fish overnight in high temp, yes, which is why it's important to accurate identify your fishs disease prior to administering a treatment. I can't imagine how anyone could mistake columnaris for ich, especially if it were at the point that it would kill overnight like we are talking about.

Like I had said, some people get more out of their quarantine period than others. If it took your fish 5-6 weeks to show they had something, then whose to say that 8-10, or even 12 weeks is long enough? You can't. I understand your concern for stressing the fish, but IMO the concern for the health of all the other fish supersedes that. If there's something wrong with the new fish, I want to know ASAP while they're in quarantine, not down the line once they are in the show tank. Given your experience, I'm surprised you aren't in agreement with that approach.

 

[PNWaquarist]

Columnaris can kill an aggressively infected fish overnight in high temp, yes, which is why it's important to accurate identify your fishs disease prior to administering a treatment. I can't imagine how anyone could mistake columnaris for ich, especially if it were at the point that it would kill overnight like we are talking about.

We were talking about treating an apparently healthy fish, not a fish that is showing symptoms of any particular disease.

Like I had said, some people get more out of their quarantine period than others. If it took your fish 5-6 weeks to show they had something, then whose to say that 8-10, or even 12 weeks is long enough? You can't.

Of course you can. Every disease has an incubation period.

I understand your concern for stressing the fish, but IMO the concern for the health of all the other fish supersedes that.

The only way to guarantee a disease-free tank is to never add another fish to their tank. You want to go that route? I certainly don't.

If there's something wrong with the new fish, I want to know ASAP while they're in quarantine, not down the line once they are in the show tank. Given your experience, I'm surprised you aren't in agreement with that approach.

I'm not in agreement with your approach because it's not good for the health of the quarantined fish. Bacteria in particular tend to reproduce more quickly at higher temperatures. Why run the risk of making an infected fish even more sick?

There's a reason that we don't physically stress doctors who are in quarantine after working with Ebola patients. It's better to just wait out the incubation period and see what happens.

 

[aqua_holic]

This can't be normal

It's a good thing aquarium fish aren't people, and Ebola is like the new Black Plague over there so that's hardly an appropriate comparison. But, I would support any means necessary to contain the spread of a highly infectious deadly disease. Sucks for those people, but not as much as it would suck to have a pandemic on our hands.

The difference between Ebola and aquarium fish diseases is that Ebola has a known, defined incubation period and many aquarium fish diseases do not. Parasites by nature from a symbiotic relationship with their host, and otherwise healthy fish can keep the infestation to a low enough level to minimize the impact on the fish. Fish can live for quite a while with parasites, and such fish are like ticking time bombs in that future stress can tip the balance of power from the fish to the parasite, putting all the fish at risk.

We all have to decide for ourselves what is important. Raising the temp from say 80 to 86 is hardly a treatment, as far as "treatments" go. For a healthy fish, it's nothing. For a sick fish, it may be more than nothing. I'm not one to stock my show tank with sick fish though, so I welcome any complications. I must admit that out of hundreds of fish, it's been a rare occurrence for me, so I'm arguing what's essentially a moot point based on my experience with the practice.

 

[PNWaquarist]

Raising the temp from say 80 to 86 is hardly a treatment, as far as "treatments" go. For a healthy fish, it's nothing. For a sick fish, it may be more than nothing.

If you're going to treat for one of the heat-resistant strains of Ich, it'll be more like 89 degrees. And if your fish is sub-tropical, it's definitely stress-inducing, especially if the fish is infected.

For the fish that you keep, what you're doing may not be a big deal. But I wouldn't suggest that it's for everybody.

The difference between Ebola and aquarium fish diseases is that Ebola has a known, defined incubation period and many aquarium fish diseases do not. Parasites by nature from a symbiotic relationship with their host, and otherwise healthy fish can keep the infestation to a low enough level to minimize the impact on the fish. Fish can live for quite a while with parasites, and such fish are like ticking time bombs in that future stress can tip the balance of power from the fish to the parasite, putting all the fish at risk.

You're ALWAYS putting your fish at risk by introducing another fish into your tank. It is literally impossible to avoid risk in that situation. Also, healthy fish carry all sorts of bacteria, fungi and, as you acknowledge, even parasites in low levels. Introducing such a fish into a display tank usually does not put the other healthy fish at risk. And, frankly, Ich isn't exactly a disease to lose sleep over. I'd be much more worried about bacterial, fungal, and viral infections.