Trouble with fishless cycle! Help please! :)

[jarrod0987]

It sounds like your adding too much ammonia which is probably killing the type of bacteria that turn Nitrite into Nitrate. They don't like ammonia. That's why they don't start multiplying until ammonia is starting to cycle already. Here is what I would do. To make things easier for you do many small water changes instead of a massive one. Do them until you have low levels of Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. Now you can see what is going on. Next make sure that you have no Ammonia or nitrite. If you do then wait until you don't have either one. Only then add a tiny amount of ammonia. Maybe only 1or 2 drops per gal. If it registers on the ammonia test you added too much. This ammonia should clear in a day. You may see nitrite the next day. If you do then DON'T add more ammonia. When Nitrite is gone then add a tiny bit more ammonia. Keep doing this until there is no ammonia or nitrite within 24 hours. As far as nitrate goes then anything under 10ppm is just fine. It is supposedly non toxic up till 80ppm. The main thing is to see if it is at a stable level or keeps rising. Denitrification is an advanced subject and a whole thread by itself. PM me if you want my help. I have done extensive experiments on this subject.

EDIT: Also you can always add a little more bacteria in a bottle each day to help things along. Don't use filter floss during this time as it is counter productive. It removes the bacteria you are adding before it can attach to the bio media and rocks.

 

[Mebbid]

It sounds like your adding too much ammonia which is probably killing the type of bacteria that turn Nitrite into Nitrate. They don't like ammonia. That's why they don't start multiplying until ammonia is starting to cycle already.

Nitrosomonas is the bacteria that converts ammonia into nitrite. It's a fairly rapidly growing bacteria. Their doubling time (how long it takes for them to split) is in the range of every 7 hours.

Nitrobacter on the other hand has a doubling time of 13 - 20 hours. Their growth rate takes more than twice as much time as Nitrosomonas.

That is why it takes longer for the nitrite consuming bacteria to grow, it's all about growth rate rather than ammonia tolerance. Following that, the nitrosomonas has to become established to provide food for the nitrobacter to grow. There's no nitrite to feed the bacterial growth otherwise.

 

[jarrod0987]

Nitrosomonas is the bacteria that converts ammonia into nitrite. It's a fairly rapidly growing bacteria. Their doubling time (how long it takes for them to split) is in the range of every 7 hours.

Nitrobacter on the other hand has a doubling time of 13 - 20 hours. Their growth rate takes more than twice as much time as Nitrosomonas.

That is why it takes longer for the nitrite consuming bacteria to grow, it's all about growth rate rather than ammonia tolerance. Following that, the nitrosomonas has to become established to provide food for the nitrobacter to grow. There's no nitrite to feed the bacterial growth otherwise.

Respectfully, I disagrees. I have had conversations with various companies who develop these products and ammonia is know to hinder the bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. Also....it has been known for a long time there it is not 1 strain of bacteria that does this job but a diversity of strains. For those of you who do not know, Dr. Tim is the one who proved the bacteria in the aquarium were not the strain (from soil) that everyone "Knew" they were. I have used his Bacteria and it works very well. A shame it is so expensive. His credentials are impeccable but that doesn't stop the "Experts" in the forums from labeling him a snake oil salesman.

Also I have had the problem of my nitrate test turning amber in the past. I think it was because I accidentally used the wrong bottle of test chemical. One of the ones from the nitrite test by accident.

 

[Mebbid]

Respectfully, Dr Tim disagrees. For those of you who do not know, He is the one who proved the bacteria in the aquarium were not the strain (from soil) that everyone "Knew" they were.

Also I have had the problem of my nitrate test turning amber in the past. I think it was because I accidentally used the wrong bottle of test chemical. One of the ones from the nitrite test by accident.

In the link you supplied the only things he states are that
1 - It takes longer for the nitrite consuming bacteria to grow and
2 - Don't add more ammonia if there's ammonia present in the aquarium.

There wasn't anything stated about ammonia killing nitrifying bacteria. If you have something along those lines for reading or watching I would be very interested in seeing it.

 

[jarrod0987]

In the link you supplied the only things he states are that
1 - It takes longer for the nitrite consuming bacteria to grow and
2 - Don't add more ammonia if there's ammonia present in the aquarium.

There wasn't anything stated about ammonia killing nitrifying bacteria. If you have something along those lines for reading or watching I would be very interested in seeing it.

Yes I apologize, I thought he stated that in the video but it must have been in one of the emails I have sent to him in the past. I edit my post. It does not change that fact that this is the case. He also says don't add ammonia if you have nitrite. Why do you think that is?? he also says not to add more too much ammonia. If the problem was only that it would take longer to consume twice as much ammonia then it wouldn't be a big deal. The bacteria in question would double again in half a day. That is not the reason. it is because Ammonia inhibits the doubling of the bacteria in question.


http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/a...se-nitrite-then-ammonia-fishless-cycling.html

There is another post here that references it. If you look up reverse cycling it is all about avoiding this problem. I realize what I'm saying is not common knowledge of the hobby. It is common knowledge in biology. I am trying to bring it here for everyone's benefit. Of course, I expect resistance

 

[Mebbid]

Almost all of the research done is for waste water. Couldn't really find anything scientific that's related to aquariums.

I did find this though: Some observations on free ammonia inhibition to Nitrobacter in nitrifying biofilm reactor - Springer

It puts the level of free ammonia to inhibit nitrobacter up to 0.1mg / nanoliter if I'm reading it properly which I doubt I am. Would anyone care to check to see if I read that right?

 

[Mebbid]

Almost all of the research done is for waste water. Couldn't really find anything scientific that's related to aquariums.

I did find this though: Some observations on free ammonia inhibition to Nitrobacter in nitrifying biofilm reactor - Springer

It puts the level of free ammonia to inhibit nitrobacter up to 0.1mg / nanoliter if I'm reading it properly which I doubt I am. Would anyone care to check to see if I read that right?

Forget what I said, I just found this on page 104

https://books.google.com/books?id=8... inhibiting the growth of nitrobacter&f=false

Going for the low limit stated of 0.1ppm and using this nifty calculator here: Free Ammonia Calculator

Shooting for the high level of pH of 8 and cranking the temperature up to 80 degrees and dosing to 4ppm of ammonia which is common in fishless cycles that puts us at 0.247ppm of Free Ammonia. So yes, you are correct about the possibility. Thank you for sharing

However, if the pH is down to 7.6 then the free ammonia is down to 0.0818ppm which is low enough to not matter.

 

[jarrod0987]

Your Welcome. As frustrating as it is....It's nice to see people have a science based way of thinking here. A "prove it" way of thinking. Much better then the "everybody knows that" or It just feels right" way of thinking here. Pleased to meet your acquaintance.

If you will now excuse me...I just discovered the amount of phosphate coming out of my tap is obscene!!! I must obtain a copper free source of Lanthanum chloride immediately!!

 

[Mebbid]

Your Welcome. As frustrating as it is....It's nice to see people have a science based way of thinking here. A "prove it" way of thinking. Much better then the "everybody knows that" or It just feels right" way of thinking here. Pleased to meet your acquaintance.

If you will now excuse me...I just discovered the amount of phosphate coming out of my tap is obscene!!! I must obtain a copper free source of Lanthanum chloride immediately!!

Nice to meet ya!

 

[biondoa]

This may be a really dumb question, but where do the bacteria come from in the first place? If you add ammonia or fish food to the tank, you start to get ammonia converting bacteria, but where do they come from? Were they in the water to begin with?

 

[Mebbid]

This may be a really dumb question, but where do the bacteria come from in the first place? If you add ammonia or fish food to the tank, you start to get ammonia converting bacteria, but where do they come from? Were they in the water to begin with?

Bacteria is everywhere constantly raining down on every surface of your house. The nitrobacter and nitrosomonas is included in that. Plus a ton is added whenever you stick your arm in the tank.

 

[jarrod0987]

It's not a dumb question at all. Many people never get fish less cycle to work because they do not add any bacteria. Everyday hetero-tropic bacteria live all over everything. Even if it is dry. Nitrifiers are different. If they dry out they die. They come from a bottle in the hobby but also come from the fish in a regular cycle. They live in the fish waste inside the fish and maybe even on his outside. They do not work when they are floating around very well. They need to attach to a surface first. Then they get to work.

 

[Mebbid]

It's not a dumb question at all. Many people never get fish less cycle to work because they do not add any bacteria. Everyday hetero-tropic bacteria live all over everything. Even if it is dry. Nitrifiers are different. If they dry out they die. They come from a bottle in the hobby but also come from the fish in a regular cycle. They live in the fish waste inside the fish and maybe even on his outside. They do not work when they are floating around very well. They need to attach to a surface first. Then they get to work.

That's a good point. However, when a fishless cycle is done (bacterial additives are practically unused on this forum) then where does the bacteria come from?

My last fishless cycle was done with nothing but ammonia and water with a freshly opened filter. Where did I get the bacteria?

 

[biondoa]

Yes, obviously I was not asking about a situation where you add bacteria from a bottle. The answer to that is pretty obvious. So nitrobacter and nitrosomonas live in my house? That is very interesting. I thought that they would not survive in the air, or dry conditions, and how do they feed when not in the tank with ammonia and nitrite?

 

[jarrod0987]

That's a good point. However, when a fishless cycle is done (bacterial additives are practically unused on this forum) then where does the bacteria come from?

My last fishless cycle was done with nothing but ammonia and water with a freshly opened filter. Where did I get the bacteria?

If that's what happened that's pretty amazing. I did not get the same results when I tried that Did you use anything like rocks or plants that came from an established aquarium?

 

[jarrod0987]

Yes, obviously I was not asking about a situation where you add bacteria from a bottle. The answer to that is pretty obvious. So nitrobacter and nitrosomonas live in my house? That is very interesting. I thought that they would not survive in the air, or dry conditions, and how do they feed when not in the tank with ammonia and nitrite?

Exactly

 

[Mebbid]

If that's what happened that's pretty amazing. I did not get the same results when I tried that Did you use anything like rocks or plants that came from an established aquarium?

Nope. Nothing like that. Many people here do the same thing.

 

[jarrod0987]

Very cool. I may try again. How long does it typically take. Perhaps around 30 days? The way I currently use might be 10 ish. I remember doing it with a fish took 1 to 1.5 months usually.

 

[biondoa]

Well that is basically my question. If you do a fishless cycle, and all you add is ammonia, where do the bacteria come from?

 

[jarrod0987]

My opinion is that it does not, and the tank will not cycle. However Mebbid states he gets a cycle. If that is true it is because bacteria is all over everything on earth all the time. The floor, objects, animals, people...everything. IMO it is not the nitrifiers but Mebbid's results seem to show that there are some in there.