Unstable pH - Chemical Questions...

[deluxechev]

Alright I’m new to all this but here goes. This is my second set up. My first tank led me to a larger one within two months. I’ve had my current tank (60 gallon tank, 100 gallon canister filtration system, a dozen assorted African cichlids, black sand) running for about a year now. Before adding fish I cleaning the sand properly, added all the necessary water additives and chemicals, ran the tank for a week, and had my water tested at the local tropical fish store. All systems were “go”, and in went the fish. My fish appear to be fine. They’ve grow quite a bit in the last year. I’m feeding them pellets and flakes in the morning and defrosted shrimp and beef heart in the afternoon. I’m loving it, they are all active and have great personalities.

HOWEVER, I’ve noticed a few trends in my water chemistry during the last year, despite doing weekly water changes (and of course including your standard water treatment/additives with the changes) and changing the filter every 4-6 weeks, my Nitrate (200) and water hardness (about 400) are consistently high. My alkalinity and nitrite are consistently in the low or “safe level” region. My pH level is also unstable. I usually have to use the “pH upper ” every month.

My local store told me it sounded like my chemistry was out of whack. So I performed a single treatment of Kent’s AF Cichlid Chemistry Cichlid Salts. I tested the water the next day and still the same results.

What’s going on with my tank fella’s, and how concerned should I be?

 

[dr_girlfriend]

welcome to AA
I wouldn't worry about your GH, because Africans like hard water. Sounds like you need to buffer your KH. If you increase your KH it will in turn increase your PH. You can add baking soda (not sure of the exact amount, I add 1/4 teaspoon to my 10 gallon planted, and it raise the KH 4 degrees) salts will just raise the GH if anything.
I don;t really have this problem as my tap water is hard and high ph and kh, so others can chime in on their experience.
As far as your nitrates, do you clean out your filter? I know canisters are a pain in that respect. Or you could have something rotting in your tank, or your just overstocked.have you tested your water directly from your tap? could be nitrates lurking there too. HTH

 

[loganj]

200 is a bit high for nitrates...what kind of test kit are you using? If it's the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit, I'd suspect your nitrates are lower than 200 because that kit is really hard to read in the higher ranges. Nitrite should always be 0.
It sounds like your water has poor buffering capacity. I'm assuming you're checking general hardness and carbonate hardness? It's possible to have hard water that has low buffering capacity. Adding the cichlid salts will probably improve the situation. You'll probably need to start adding something to your new water to get the carbonate hardness (alkalinity) up before you add the water to the tank. If you can add some aragonite to the tank...either as substrate or perhaps some base rock (like you use in a SW tank), that will help. I maintain a 150g cichlid tank with a CC substrate and pH is consistently about 8.2-8.3. I'd continue with the Cichlid Salt until alk levels were where they need to be. I'd also treat new water. You can, failing the other methods, put a bag of aragonite substrate in your canister filter. I don't think it's a situation to be very concerned about. Having your pH bouncing around is stressful to the fish though and they'll do better once you get it stabilized.

 

[TankGirl]

I'm interested in the tap water values for pH, KH and NO3.

Also, the meaty PM meal might be contributing to overall excess waste in the tank. I'd cut that back to maybe 3 times a week, instead of every day, and substitute flake or pellets the other days.

I agree that your buffering capacity may be lacking here, causing unstable pH, but a quick comparison of the water from the tap versus tank will shed some light on the whole situation, I hope.

 

[deluxechev]

Thanks everyone, I'll look into all this and have an update for you on Monday.

 

[deluxechev]

Update:

I tested the tap water and came up with the following; pH is at 8.4, Nitrate is at 20, Nitrite is at 0, Hardness is at 250, and Alkalinity is at 270. (Results via Mardel 5-in-1 Test Strips)

This weekend I was very busy. I was reading up on other articles I found on the net about tank maintenance and realized I wasn’t “churning” the sand bed nearly enough. In fact I’ve only performed it once, about 6 months ago, after I had the tank running for about 6 months. So Saturday I removed all rock from half the tank, pick up all loose waste and churned the sand. Sunday I did the other half of the tank. I was amazed at how much garbage I got out. I have been skimming the floor, removing loose waste 2 to 4 days a week (this sand is really high maintenance, but the fish absolutely love it!!!), but it obviously wasn’t enough.

After I had finished churning on Sunday, I cleaned out my canister and performed my weekly 6 gallon water change. On top of the usual chemicals I continued with second treatment of Kent’s AF Cichlid Chemistry Cichlid Salts. By this time it was about noon. I waited until about 8pm before testing my water again. The following were the results; pH is at 8.4, Nitrate is at 200, Nitrite is at 0.05, Hardness is at 250, and Alkalinity is at 150.

I also reduced the amount of meat I’m giving the fish, from daily to M/W/F.

So what now? I’m guessing since I got a lot of that waste out, the nitrate level should go down gradually over the next few weeks with my water changes. But should I be adding baking soda to buffer my KH? And the hardness result from the strips I use, does it report KH or GH?

 

[Hooie]

Not to push any certain product, but I was having the same problem with my pH. I was constantly adding pH down to my tank. On a lark when I was at my lfs one time I bought Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Proper pH 7.0. Ever since I've started using it, my pH has been as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar. It corrects the pH and also adds a nice buffer so I don't get pH swings.

When doing my 50% weekly water changes, I add 1/2 scoop to every 5 gal bucket. I believe they also sell pH 6.5 and 7.5.

 

[fisch]

With a nitrate of 200 ppm it might be a good idea to do larger water changes until it comes down a bit. Make sure you stir the sand up every few weeks too. Nitrate can be converted to nitrite in anaerobic conditions, as well as H2S formation.

 

[Mazdaman]

Few things I noticed while reading your post.

1. Most say not to use any ph chemicals as they are only a temporary solution. If you do a search on this website you'll find some interesting debate regarding ph values. The general consesus was that a stable ph is more important the the "ideal ph value". I'm thinking part of the reason the ph isn't stable is because you add the chemical and then it "wears" off and the ph returns.

2. As for the nitrate, I noticed your only doing about 10% pwc weekly. I would try doing more like 25% a week for a while and see how that goes.

3. If I understand correctly you said you change your filter media every 4-6 weeks. This is not necessary nor benificial for your tank. If anything just rinse the dirty filter media in tank water (use the water you remove during pwc) and its good to go. Manufacturers would like you to buy the media every 4-6 weeks to make more money off you. You need to keep the beneficial bacteria that have grown on your filter media and by throwing it out your starting all over again. The sponges should last a good year.

Try some the suggestions you've gotten here for awhile and see if the tank starts to stabilize without adding chemicals. it really is easier on the fish that way.
Good luck and HTH

 

[deluxechev]

I’ll definitely be increasing the amount to a 25% weekly water change. Thanks for the suggestion. The pH appears to be right where it needs to be, so I’ll keep an eye on it and see what it does.

The canister system I have is 100 gallon Cascade system. It has three trays. In the bottom tray I have both the bio sponge, as well as the ceramic “Bio Rings”. In the second and third trays I have the “Carbon and Zeolite” filter media.

What I have been doing is rinsing the Bio Rings, rinsing out the canister and replacing the “Carbon and Zeolite” filter media. Up until this last filter change (yesterday) I had been using only one tray for media filter and had kept the floss in the top tray, since my tank is only a 60 gallon. But yesterday I put in the media in both trays.

So I should simply be rinsing everything out?

 

[Mazdaman]

Thats what i think. Also you can have the floss in one of the upper trays to help keep the water nice and clear. I actually replace my floss every 3-4 weeks to help keep the water clear. However the rest should just be rinsed and "swooshed" in removed tank water. One other note is that unless you are tryin to remove meds or something from the water the charcoal isn't really needed. By removing this you could add some more media. I have a 3 tray filter aswell. 20ppi and 30ppi foams in bottom tray. Ceramic rings/noodles and 20ppi foam in second tray and floss and "polishing foam" in third tray. It all sounds like your back on the right track again so good work.

 

[Mazdaman]

I almost forgot one thing.... ...Try to pick up a test kit that isn't the strips like you are using. They tend to not even be in the same field as far as the readings go. I first used them way back when. I thought my readings were pretty good. It would show like ammonia .15 or so. This was during my cycle, I found this site, they said get the Aq. Pharm. master test kit and wham!!!!! The ammonia was 3+ or something sky high like that. Anyways the test strips are useless. If you can't get one, have the lfs test your water for you. You will need the test kit anyways though

 

[Blucat]

PH chemicals are really bad in the long term if you are using them regularly. I used to use Ph down every pwc and it has some really bad side effects on my tank. First all 10 neons died, 2nd got a brown algae plague and 3rd I have reoccuring green water (working on). It also hardened my water which is not nice for the fish. If you need the ph to be down use peat or driftwood. Coral for ph up. However i do not want to use peat or driftwood so i just filter my water through brita filter to use for my tank. The water comes out a perfect ph 7.

 

[deluxechev]

Thanks for all the advice. I just picked up a Aq Pharm master test kit, and I'm focused on fixing my problems without dumping boat loads of chemicals into my tank.

However I’m still unclear on a few items.

What’s the charcoal mentioned above? And what are the 20ppi, 30 ppi and polishing foams mentioned?

What I’ve been using is the prepackaged “Cascade Pro-CarbZ Filt-A-Pack”. It’s a nylon mesh filter bag that contains Carbon and Zeolite. My local fish shop told me it’s what I should be using with me 100gallon Cascade Canister Filter.

I found that these prepackaged bags also come in Carbon only and Zeolite only. What’s the difference? Should I be using either of these instead? Or do you recommend something else?

 

[TankGirl]

I don't think you need the carbon or the zeolite. Carbon is not effective after about 5 days or so, as the surface becomes clogged and it no longer traps anything. It is simply biomedia after that, but I'd use the space for more floss (I'd change that and rinse the more rigid stuff) or you can use the same space for a media bag of crushed coral. That will last in your filter for about 3-4 months and is a great no-brainer buffer to boost alkalinity.

I think someone already mentioned, but if it has been a long time since you stirred your sand then I'd avoid stirring the whole thing up all at once. You are going to introduce quite a bit of organic compounds into the water column and either start a mini-cycle or actually release some H2S (hydrogen sulfide) into the water column. Gentle stirring every week or so will keep the sand from compacting. Digging fish are a big help in a sand tank, lol.

With a nitrate that high I'd do 20% twice a week water changes. You don't want to do a massive change because the fish get accustomed to the high nitrate, but gradually diluting it down is a good idea. 20% per week will take a good long while to get it down, IMO.

 

[Mazdaman]

well deluxe the 20ppi and 30ppi are simply foam pieces made for the rena filstar filter series. You can use just about any aquarium filter foam and floss and just cut it to size to fit the filter. Some prefer this has it can be a little less expensive. I only buy the floss in bulk and the foam made for my filter. The point I was trying to get across in one that tankgirl also mentioned. The carbon in that bag is only ective for up to 7 days. The only time one needs to use it, is if they are trying to remove meds, color or odor from the tank. I would also add either more floss or another form of biological filtration. HTH