UPDATED API Test Results for 10 AND 60 Gallon...

[ArtesiaWells]

Again someone can correct me if I'm wrong, your fish are producing ammonia & you're not changing out ALL of the water so with a PWC there will be some ammonia still in there, you essentially have a constant source of ammonia. Because you are doing a fish in cycle, IMO, it is best not to let the ammonia go to 1ppm. I keep mine under .5 if at all possible.

I suppose this makes sense, and what we have been discussing towards the latter end of this thread -- perhaps I will not let ammonia climb to 1ppm. I will do a PWC on the 60-gallon now.

 

[shellieca]

I suppose this makes sense, and what we have been discussing towards the latter end of this thread -- perhaps I will not let ammonia climb to 1ppm. I will do a PWC on the 60-gallon now.

I know 50% seems like a lot but it really isn't going to hurt anything, I'll be doing one later today myself on both of my cycling tanks, a 10g & a 46g. I think a lot of people do 50% regularly once their tanks are established just less often. I know it can get frustrating, hang in there you're in the right path.

 

[jlk]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you have only performed one or maybe two 10-20% water changes on this big tank since it was setup. If it was cycled, water changes still need to be performed weekly and most members on here do not change less than 50% a week to keep a tank healthy. With goldfish, larger water changes are recommended. The tank is in the cycling process and more care needs to be devoted to water quality because there is fish in the tank. The 10g needs serious attention right now and I would prioritize this first. Ultimately, its your decision on how you would like to handle water changes. We can only offer recommendations here.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

I know 50% seems like a lot but it really isn't going to hurt anything, I'll be doing one later today myself on both of my cycling tanks, a 10g & a 46g. I think a lot of people do 50% regularly once their tanks are established just less often. I know it can get frustrating, hang in there you're in the right path.

Thanks Shelli,

Yes, indeed, I was planning on doing 50% weekly changes once the tank is established and is housing the breeder-level fancy goldfish we plan on keeping. Right now is where the confusion comes in with regard to these tanks that are cycling...

If you're saying 50% won't hurt anything, then perhaps it won't hurt anything -- seemed "dangerous" to me to remove so much water during this period, but both you and JLK are recommending it...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you have only performed one or maybe two 10-20% water changes on this big tank since it was setup.

Correct. That's about right.

If it was cycled, water changes still need to be performed weekly and most members on here do not change less than 50% a week to keep a tank healthy.

I understand and I was going to keep to that schedule once the tank was established and housing the breeder-grade fantails we plan on keeping. It's just that right now, we're not sure if changing out 50% of this tank's water is healthy just to get 0.25ppm of ammonia down during a cycle process.

With goldfish, larger water changes are recommended. The tank is in the cycling process and more care needs to be devoted to water quality because there is fish in the tank.

I understand. You still stand by the 50% change on the 60 right now?

The 10g needs serious attention right now and I would prioritize this first. Ultimately, its your decision on how you would like to handle water changes. We can only offer recommendations here.

I understand what you're saying about your recommendations and that ultimately it is my decision -- but the reason why I come here and to other forums is to get feedback and opinions from seasoned people in the hobby so that we can best balance our decisions; believe me, none of your (or others') comments, recommendations and insight have been disregarded or otherwise marginalized.

Okay, so right this minute and taking the 10-gallon out of the equation for just a moment (I did the 50% change on that tank yesterday and will perform another 50% change just to be safe in a little while) -- what should be done with the 60? Definitely a 50% change? This will NOT harm the cycle, correct?

 

[jlk]

I am not quite sure why you believe water changes are 'dangerous'. The lack of water changes and cleaning resulted in disaster in this tank previously. I think its time to reconsider your tank basics especially because you have two tanks right now that are cycling with fish in them. This will go a long way to preventing future disasters and maintaining both fish and aquarium health.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

I am not quite sure why you believe water changes are 'dangerous'. The lack of water changes and cleaning resulted in disaster in this tank previously. I think its time to reconsider your tank basics especially because you have two tanks right now that are cycling with fish in them. This will go a long way to preventing future disasters and maintaining both fish and aquarium health.

I only felt this way about water changes during the cycling process because I was always proceeding with the understanding that water should basically be "left alone" during this time so the fish's waste, etc. can kick-start the biological filter. Once a cycle is complete and a tank is "established," I would never consider water changes "dangerous."

 

[jlk]

Water changes in an uncycled tank are even MORE important than they are in a cycled tank!! Fish produce ammonia 24/7- there will never be a shortage of available ammonia unless you are changing 100% of the water on an hourly basis. By limiting the toxins in the water, you are also limiting the degree of exposure your fish are enduring in the cycling process.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Water changes in an uncycled tank are even MORE important than they are in a cycled tank!! Fish produce ammonia 24/7- there will never be a shortage of available ammonia unless you are changing 100% of the water on an hourly basis. By limiting the toxins in the water, you are also limiting the degree of exposure your fish are enduring in the cycling process.

Okay. So I shall leave the previous theory I had embraced in the dust...

Moving beyond that, here are some other factors I have been thinking about before I move on to a water change on both tanks today:

1. What about gravel vacuuming during this time? Along with the water changes, should I be doing the standard gravel vacuuming as well to release uneaten food and waste, or should this be allowed to remain so that bacteria begins to populate the substrate?

2. What about filter media at this point -- should the cartridges in the Aqueon HOB be rinsed in removed tank water, or should the sponge in the AquaClear be squeezed and rinsed out in the tank water? Or should these pieces of media be totally left alone right now to colonize bacteria? Neither the dual cartridges of the Aqueon, nor the white sponge block of the AquaClear, appear overtly filthy or blackened with debris right now; on the last water change I performed, last Monday, I dunked the Aqueon cartridges in removed tank water because they were a little discolored, but this didn't seem to remove any attached debris to be honest. I haven't yet touched the AquaClear's BioMax rings or the sponge...

3. Exactly how much water should be removed from the 60-gallon right now if I am going to attempt a change? The reading yesterday, once again, came back as being no higher than "0.25ppm" for ammonia with 0ppm on nitrate and nitrite, so how much do you recommend I change today?

 

[Laser]

1. It has been advised to avoid heavy gravel vacuuming during the cycling process. I feel it has little to no impact in the overall progress of the process.

2 Rinsing the filter media during the cycling process is not necessary and is not really a good idea. You are trying to establish bacteria colonies on the filter pads, so I would leave them alone.

3. I read some of your other posts concerning the impact of several 50% water changes. The only way you will make a significant alteration to your ammonia and nitrite content in your tank is to do a substantial water change. It doesn't matter how many gallons you take out, it is the percentage of the water you replace. The ammonia and nitrite reaches nearly perfect equilibrium within the water. If you only make a 20% change and your ammonia levels are at .5, the resulting level of ammonia will still be .4 which is still considered a dangerous level.

Now to answer your question, you don't need to perform a water change today based on those readings.

In regards to this thread becoming tedious, I have a way you can solve that. If you just change your avatar to a picture of a female no one will complain and everyone on the forum will be posting in your thread to help you out. I've seen cycling threads go up to hundreds of pages, so feel free to post here and as questions as long as you feel is necessary. We are all here to help and if we don't want to hear these questions, even possibly the same questions asked in a different way, then why even log into the forum?

 

[jlk]

Okay. So I shall leave the previous theory I had embraced in the dust...

Moving beyond that, here are some other factors I have been thinking about before I move on to a water change on both tanks today:

1. What about gravel vacuuming during this time? Along with the water changes, should I be doing the standard gravel vacuuming as well to release uneaten food and waste, or should this be allowed to remain so that bacteria begins to populate the substrate?

Vac 1/2 one week then the other 1/2 the following week. You dont need to go crazy but allowing tons of waste & debris to remain in gravel will lead to future issues as you are already aware. Bacteria excrete a sticky substance that allows them to adhere & colonize on surfaces so you will not be removing them.

2. What about filter media at this point -- should the cartridges in the Aqueon HOB be rinsed in removed tank water, or should the sponge in the AquaClear be squeezed and rinsed out in the tank water? Or should these pieces of media be totally left alone right now to colonize bacteria? Neither the dual cartridges of the Aqueon, nor the white sponge block of the AquaClear, appear overtly filthy or blackened with debris right now; on the last water change I performed, last Monday, I dunked the Aqueon cartridges in removed tank water because they were a little discolored, but this didn't seem to remove any attached debris to be honest. I haven't yet touched the AquaClear's BioMax rings or the sponge...

Leave them alone until the tank is fully cycled UNLESS they are so full of debris that water can not flow through them. They should be discolored.

3. Exactly how much water should be removed from the 60-gallon right now if I am going to attempt a change? The reading yesterday, once again, came back as being no higher than "0.25ppm" for ammonia with 0ppm on nitrate and nitrite, so how much do you recommend I change today?

I stand by 50% which should be done at the very least once a week whether the tank is cycled or not. In cycling tank, this may need to be more frequent than once a week based on toxin levels.

 

[Laser]

I only felt this way about water changes during the cycling process because I was always proceeding with the understanding that water should basically be "left alone" during this time so the fish's waste, etc. can kick-start the biological filter. Once a cycle is complete and a tank is "established," I would never consider water changes "dangerous."

It is true you are essentially playing a game of cat and mouse with the ammonia and nitrite levels. To start the bio filter you need them to be present, but to keep the fish healthy they need to not be present. There is no danger to the bio filter because the presence of nitrifying bacteria is inevitable; it cannot be stopped. Yes, it will be slowed by your large water changes, but if you want to keep the fish alive they are necessary.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

1. It has been advised to avoid heavy gravel vacuuming during the cycling process. I feel it has little to no impact in the overall progress of the process.

But what about decaying material in the substrate? This can't be harmful?

2 Rinsing the filter media during the cycling process is not necessary and is not really a good idea. You are trying to establish bacteria colonies on the filter pads, so I would leave them alone.

Not even in removed tank water? Just leave the cartridge pads and sponges alone?

3. I read some of your other posts concerning the impact of several 50% water changes. The only way you will make a significant alteration to your ammonia and nitrite content in your tank is to do a substantial water change. It doesn't matter how many gallons you take out, it is the percentage of the water you replace. The ammonia and nitrite reaches nearly perfect equilibrium within the water. If you only make a 20% change and your ammonia levels are at .5, the resulting level of ammonia will still be .4 which is still considered a dangerous level.

I understand that "really bad" stuff is happening to and in the 10-gallon which requires constant water maintenance right now, but what about the larger tank?

Now to answer your question, you don't need to perform a water change today based on those readings.

On which tank -- the 60-gallon? I was actually going to perform one because the water is looking a bit...I don't know..."slightly hazy" compared to where it was; you're saying NO water change right now? JLK says perform the change, and so do others...

In regards to this thread becoming tedious, I have a way you can solve that. If you just change your avatar to a picture of a female no one will complain and everyone on the forum will be posting in your thread to help you out.

What??

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Boy...

You know something? I think you (J) and Laser are beginning to purposely give me conflicting information just to "get even" with me for the threads and questions...

Let me address your statements first:

Vac 1/2 one week then the other 1/2 the following week. You dont need to go crazy but allowing tons of waste & debris to remain in gravel will lead to future issues as you are already aware. Bacteria excrete a sticky substance that allows them to adhere & colonize on surfaces so you will not be removing them.

So, it's okay that I just sift around some of the gravel when I do the water changes, letting some of the uneaten food and debris to release so it can be sucked up by the syphon and then the filter intake?

And yes -- as you know, I am way too well aware of what happens with toxic pockets in the substrate when it's not cleaned well enough or regularly...that is what precisely brought down our last goldfish setup after the attack by the aggressive Red Cap left open wounds on the other fantails, thus letting in a nasty bacterial infection based on our water quality...

So I'm a bit paranoid and overtly concerned with keeping the substrate clean this time. This is why I was asking.

Leave them alone until the tank is fully cycled UNLESS they are so full of debris that water can not flow through them. They should be discolored.

Okay.

I stand by 50% which should be done at the very least once a week whether the tank is cycled or not. In cycling tank, this may need to be more frequent than once a week based on toxin levels.

This seems to be in direct contradiction to what Laser is suggesting -- he is suggesting that based on the last readings from yesterday's API testing, with the ammonia at 0.25, a water change doesn't have to be done today (unless you're not suggesting it be done today but at least once a week)...

Would it be "okay" or "safe" to do a big change on the 60 today, right now?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

It is true you are essentially playing a game of cat and mouse with the ammonia and nitrite levels. To start the bio filter you need them to be present, but to keep the fish healthy they need to not be present.

This is what has been driving me absolutely bananas...

There is no danger to the bio filter because the presence of nitrifying bacteria is inevitable; it cannot be stopped. Yes, it will be slowed by your large water changes, but if you want to keep the fish alive they are necessary.

So weekly water changes to both cycling tanks -- or more frequently in the case of the toxic 10-gallon -- is okay?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Here's a reply on this topic I found by our very own Bradbury after doing some Googling around:

Hello d...

Aspencer is essentially right. When I cycled with fish, I tested for ammonia and nitrites every day. When the test showed even a trace of either of these in the water, I changed only 25 to 30 percent of the tank water. This will be enough to get the water properties back into the "safe zone".

The reason is, even a trace of ammonia or nitrites is enough to damage the sensitive gill tissues and hurt the fish.

So, essentially, Brad is saying when a trace of ammonia or nitrites are present, he would do a 25 to 30 percent water change -- do you guys and gals concur with this? I don't have to do a 50% change right now, do I, being that my ammonia hasn't climbed to 1.0?

 

[Laser]

But what about decaying material in the substrate? This can't be harmful?



Not even in removed tank water? Just leave the cartridge pads and sponges alone?



I understand that "really bad" stuff is happening to and in the 10-gallon which requires constant water maintenance right now, but what about the larger tank?



On which tank -- the 60-gallon? I was actually going to perform one because the water is looking a bit...I don't know..."slightly hazy" compared to where it was; you're saying NO water change right now? JLK says perform the change, and so do others...



What??

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. JLK's advice was perfect and mine pretty much matched what she said we just said the same things in a different way. She and I were probably writing our posts up at the same time and had I know she was going to do so, I would have refrained.

I should have been more specific. Most of the bacteria colony lives in your filter, which is why I said I personally believe gravel vacuuming has little impact on your "overall" progress. Vacuuming half the gravel per week is a great idea.

I based my answer to no water change on the 60 off your test results: Ammonia = less than 0.25, no NitrItes, and no NitrAtes. If they said to perform a water change I must have missed something.

I apologize for my last comment. It was meant to be a harmless tongue in cheek comment in no way directed at you.

Also, one last thing to consider for you... When it comes to the health of your fish you can't do too many water changes. You could do 50% water changes everyday, in fact some breeders and discus keepers do so. Fish love new water. I think it's just something that we can sense after doing this for so long.

 

[jlk]

Thanks, Laser! My reasoning behind the wc is based on the fact the tank has yet to have more than one (maybe 2?) 10% wcs since being setup. Buffers need to be restored as well as minerals & electrolytes. Cycling or cycled, wcs still need to be performed on a regular weekly basis to keep a tank healthy. 10% once every week or two on a 60g simply is not sufficient no matter how you look at it. My take on the situation anyway!

 

[ArtesiaWells]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. JLK's advice was perfect and mine pretty much matched what she said we just said the same things in a different way. She and I were probably writing our posts up at the same time and had I know she was going to do so, I would have refrained.

Thanks for the clarification.

I should have been more specific. Most of the bacteria colony lives in your filter, which is why I said I personally believe gravel vacuuming has little impact on your "overall" progress. Vacuuming half the gravel per week is a great idea.

So, let's say I do a water change today -- it's okay that I "sift" around a bit with the syphon to suck up at least some debris, waste, uneaten food, etc?

I based my answer to no water change on the 60 off your test results: Ammonia = less than 0.25, no NitrItes, and no NitrAtes. If they said to perform a water change I must have missed something.

Well, the ammonia results for the 60-gallon were actually no higher than 0.25 - so it was somewhere between 0 and 0.25, but no higher based on the color chart; this is why I was confused as to whether or not this indicates if a water change is necessary right now...

Also, one last thing to consider for you... When it comes to the health of your fish you can't do too many water changes. You could do 50% water changes everyday, in fact some breeders and discus keepers do so. Fish love new water. I think it's just something that we can sense after doing this for so long.

If that's the case, that there can never be too many water changes, how do we know just how often to do them, especially in a cycling system?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Thanks, Laser! My reasoning behind the wc is based on the fact the tank has yet to have more than one (maybe 2?) 10% wcs since being setup. Buffers need to be restored as well as minerals & electrolytes. Cycling or cycled, wcs still need to be performed on a regular weekly basis to keep a tank healthy. 10% once every week or two on a 60g simply is not sufficient no matter how you look at it. My take on the situation anyway!

So, then, what? 50%? 30%? 20%? If I were to perform a change right now, today, what volume do you recommend I remove based on yesterday's test results of 0.25ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrate/nitrite?