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Old 02-12-2006, 03:56 AM   #1
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VERY URGENT!

I found a dead danio this morning, my loach (see sick loach post) is a lot worse! my heater smased over night and when i came in this morning my temperature was at 31 C. Way too much for all of them but the danio couldnt take it, pleco's were surfacing! there's a film on the top of the water, glass on the bottom of the tank, i saved a black neon that revived himself when i turned the heater off.

There is something seriously wrong with my tank, i dont think my loach will make it which is a shame because he is 1 of my favourite fish.
I have never succesfully treated any fish of mine and this internal parasite seems to have got worse fir the loach but better for the danios.
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Old 02-12-2006, 04:21 AM   #2
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Always better off to remove a broken heater than to keep it in there until a store opens. The electrical components should not have contact with water. It can electrocute things...including you. Always unplug the heater first and wait about 15 minute before taking it out.

The best thing to do is to just get the tank back in order. Take out the glass. Put in a new heater. Do a small water change and continue treatments with the loach.

Please describe in detail the symptoms of illness the loach is showing? What are you seeing that makes you think you are dealing with internal parasites?
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Old 02-12-2006, 04:33 AM   #3
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The loach is sitting on the bottom, gills moving very fast, and are red. His tail fin is very red and has a white fungus on it. He really doesnt look good. We have just done a water change. The oto's seem fine, and the neons. The plecos are surfacing every now and then, but have no signs of illness. One danio is dead.

The newest loach, the smallest seems fine and i havnt seen the other one. There is currently no heater in there, so the temp will be dropping. As soon as the lfs opens we will go and get another heater, what else should we get?

The only chance of using a hospital tank is using a tiny plastic tank that i have, should we bother? It is under or about 10 litres. The only filter with have is the old one from the tank (for a 20gal). Should we try and get the loach into this tank and treat?

This is really grim. I could try and get a photo of the loach.

(btw, 'Satsumas' is my brothers account, i dont know his login)
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Old 02-12-2006, 04:38 AM   #4
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Not a great pic
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:15 AM   #5
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For emergency use...a simple five gallon bucket can become a make shift hospital tank. I don't know it's conversion into liters.

If you do have a bucket, use it if it's never been exposed to chemicals. It will need at least an air stone. If you can, when you get to the store...pick up a small five or ten gallon tank and a cheapie sponge filter that runs off an air pump. Oh and a heater. The only other thing you would need is something for the fish to hide in. Doesn't need substrate...better off without in a QT/hospital tank.

The loach has a serious bacterial infection. The redness of the gills can be a sign of either burns from stuff like ammonia and nitrite or it could be gill flukes (external parasites). The redness in the tail however, is the bacterial infection. Melafix may not be enough, yet chemical meds may be too much. It's really hard to treat loaches because they are scaleless fish.

Use an antibiotic...half dose. Looks like it may need that type of med. to combat what it's ailing from. It may or may not recover...especially if the animal is going down hill fast. The deal with the heater breaking didn't help. That only adds to the stress. Stress lowers the immune system's ability to fight illness. Good luck. If anything...this is a learning experience whether the fish recovers or not.

Having a QT can be very helpful when aquiring new fish as well as for sick fish. New fish should go in the QT for at least two weeks just incase they are harboring any illness or parasites. If so, they can be treated right where they are at and keep the main system from being exposed to disease and little harmful bugs.
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:28 AM   #6
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thanks for the help. so we should move him into the small tank. it has an air stone, heater and an oversized filter. Its up and running now. Im not sure the lfs has antibiotics, but i will double check. There is substrate in the tank, as we just set it up. We made a hiding cave. Moving him isnt going to help with the stress levels.

Should loaches be treated with half dose of most things as they are scaleless? We will ask at the lfs what they recommend, probably bring home a few diff meds, and see what you all think.
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Old 02-12-2006, 06:20 AM   #7
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Right, we have a new heater. The meds i have got are:

Aquuarium treatment 9 Anti Internal Bacteria
(cure diseases with symptoms such as bacterial gill rot, dropsy, ulcers and septicaemia)

Sera Mycopur
(water treatment against fungal infections, skin and gill flukes)

Which one should we use? And should it be half dose?

The loach is still in the community tank at the moment, should we move him, then treat the hospital tank water, or treat the ht water first?

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Old 02-12-2006, 06:43 AM   #8
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Use the Anti bacterial.

I personally have always recommended half dose unless the package says that it is safe for silver and scaleless fish. If it does not...then half dose. As of what to do first...move or dose...dose the QT, then slowly acclimate for at least half an hour. This will lessen the amount of shock from the move.
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:07 AM   #9
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He's in the tank now, havent added any treatment yet, i'll wait half an hour before adding it. (started before i read your last post, so didnt treat first)
there's a half dose sitting next to the tank.

Ive kept the tank light off, and the room hes in is dark too, should i bother putting the light on later, or just leave him in the dark?

What about feeding it?

Thanks for your advice
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:49 AM   #10
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Light isn't important. If anything, the fish would probably seek a dark area anyway.

Refrain from feeding for at least 24 hours. He's pretty fat so he can go without for a while (feeding should be reduced anyway...a fat fish is not healthy), but...try offering a little bit of food after 24 hours of being medicated to see if he accepts any. If he does eat, feed very sparingly until treatments are done. Two minuites worth divided into two or more feeds every two days. Do a small water change prior to the next feeding day if not already done so for what the medication requires. Uneaten food should be removed after 15 minutes to half an hour after offering.
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Old 02-12-2006, 07:59 AM   #11
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Right, thanks. So far, since putting him in the tank, he has shot rapidly down to the bottom and squeezed himself between the glass and a rock, not ideal,he hasnt found the cave we built, and is just staying still, he'd be much happier in the cave, but i guess we'll just have to leave him be.

The treatment says its a two dose treatment, done on the 1st and 4th day. It doesnt say anything about doing a water change.

If we offer him food, say tomorrow, we should do a pwc the next day?

Thanks again.
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Old 02-12-2006, 09:09 AM   #12
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If we offer him food, say tomorrow, we should do a pwc the next day?

Yes. If he refuses to eat, then don't bother offering for at least a few days. Take out 25% of the water. Then do a water test about 15 minutes after. Do another if ammonia and/or nitrites are showing (same amount). Keep temp as stable as possible while doing these changes. You will want to replenish meds taken out during the change so replace 25% to what you are dosing.

Agreed...leave him be. Refrain from any 'poking and proding' type observations. Keep a distance and only tend to the tank when needed.
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Old 02-12-2006, 10:44 AM   #13
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He's moved over to the other side of the tank now i didnt see him do so, so i dont know if he swam well or just 'flashed' his way over there.

I'd say its a good thing that he has moved though yes? Shows that he has the energy to move?
He was lodged in the same position for 3 and a half hours.
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:21 PM   #14
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The fact that he moved only means he's still alive. Breathe...LOL. Relax. There's not much else you can do, except what you are doing and just hope for the best. Keep up with the treatment as directed. Do the water changes. Test the water and just let nature take it from there. Time and patience.

Someone once brought us an albino oscar. Pretty big, but not huge yet. He had a severe case of Hole in the Head disease and to top that off...his intestines were blocked. He didn't just have pits in his head, but over his entire body. He was also deformed from being in a very small tank for his size. His body couldn't grow outward anymore so it compressed. I put him in a bucket with an air stone for a couple of days and worked on his blockage by literally taking my hand and pushing on his belly to clear what was there. He went into a hospital tank for three months before he showed signs of improvement with the hole in the head disease. His scars even healed up some. Usually they don't. All I used was half a dose of methylene blue and half dose of malachite green. That's it. After a month, I didn't medicate him at all except some melafix and kept him in the hospital tank with constant clean water. Two months after that he was healthy again and sold to someone with a nice big tank for him.

Granted oscars are a lot more durable than loaches, but it's the time I'm pointing out here and the severity of the disease he had. So even with hardy fish, treatment can take time. It's going to be awhile if he responds positively to the treatments, so relax. Have fun somewhere and take a breather every now and then
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Old 02-12-2006, 02:48 PM   #15
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Woah! That seems like 1 tough fish! to survive all of that!

He seems more 'stable' than he did in his usual tank, more calm and perhaps looks a bit better than he did. Its difficult to see but i spose he's coping, i think the next 24 hours are critical, hopefully he can stick it out and with the treatment hopefully doing its job he'll be ok.

Im a bit worried about my other fish, they all seem perfectly healthy and show no signs of illness except the danios and the 2nd biggest loach. His normal black 'yoyo' patterns on white have darkened considerably! there's no signs of infection or fungus and he did some flashing yesterday too. Im cautios of using treatments on the community tank as the loach are more sensitive to them, but it has so far worked on all my other fish that were flashing.

im not confident the cause of them flashing has 100% gone, i noticed the danios have a very small white internal marking which appeared when they were flashing but has died down now until its barely noticable but is just seen when you have a close look.

I could half dose it, but im still reluctant to do so.

Do you think the internal bacterial infection would have spread to the others, in particular the 2nd biggest loach? i read that it kills quickly and should be treated asap, but i dont know if it has spread at all yet so there's no real point in treating the tank for something that might not be in it.
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Old 02-12-2006, 08:18 PM   #16
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I agree with not using meds on things that don't need it. You can put a half dose of Melafix as a preventative. Methylene blue is commonly used as a preventative and is actually meant to be one. With loaches, it would have to be half dose for treatment, but you can put in a quarter dose to help ward off any bad bacteria lingering around. Remove carbon as always while treating with meds.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:22 AM   #17
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Yeah, half dosing with melafix seems a good idea. I dont have any Methylene blue so it will have to be Melafix, i havent seen any Methylene blue in any store over here but i'll have a good look as im running low on Melafix. So if i keep up the half dose of Melafix every morning this should be ok?

I just checked my loach. He survived the day and night, but his gills are still moving quite fast. I didnt get a look at his tail because of his position and i dont want to keep looking either. Im guessing it will heal slowly (touchwood) (if it heals at all) so it will be in the same state as it was yesterday. He's still in the same area as he was last night, Still not in that cave! Surely he would feel more safe in there?

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Old 02-13-2006, 03:35 AM   #18
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If he feels the need to hide, then he will. For now be happy he's out in the open for observation.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:51 AM   #19
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I think my 2nd biggest loach may have the internal bacterial infection aswell.
I read that a darkening in colour is a symptom of it.

Should i wait and see if it develops any further then treat it?
Treat the whole tank. seems like the best idea right now.
Or put him in the QT tank?

I might be jumping the gun here but i feel i want to treat the community tank to destroy any infectious bacteria. Good idea or bad?
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:26 AM   #20
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Sorry to keep going on but he's moved into the cave now and i have been able to observe the other side of him. I took some pictures too.
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