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Old 08-21-2013, 10:20 AM   #1
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Water is very very cloudy

Hi, my water is very very cloudy. We can't see fish more than 1 ft. depth. (Sorry for my bad english, I usually speak french).

I don't know if my water is White/Grey cloudy or green cloudy. When the lights are off, it seems to be green, but when lights are on, it seems to be white/grey cloudy.

For precautions of algea bloom, I put black towels on the aquarium. Last WC, I have cleaned substrate, cleaned windows, added no ferts (water was beginning to cloud a bit), unplugged lights, no food, stopped pressurized CO2 system, have put filters to high, cleaned the mechanical filter, but not biogical.

I did some mesurement of the water chemistry, nothing anormal. No ammonia (0).

The water started to become cloudy 3-4 days after I used the product "Waste Control" from Nutrafin. It's supposed to be bacteria that eat fish **** and uneaten food residue or dead plants leaves, etc... I'll not say it's automatically a bacterial bloom, because water seems green when light off...

I got two suicide this week, found 2 lampeye on the ground. It's the first time in 2 month they do that. (I have topless aquarium)

When it started, the water was white for sure, but now it's so cloudy I can't define if it's green or white...

No sunlight is going near the tank, I do 33%PWC per week.

Anyone already experienced that ?

Any idea on what I should do to help?

29 gallons, 78 fluorescent T5HO light 8hrs/day, injecting co2 6hrs/day, moderate to heavy planted.

Temp: 25-27 įC
GH: 5
KH: 3
PH: 6.5-7
NH3+NH4:0
NO2: 0
NO3: <5ppm this week because I did a 50%PWC (usually have <15ppm)
PO4: 0 as usually

Thanks for any help, I don't know what to do now
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:37 PM   #2
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This is pretty unusual. You have already done all the usual things. I am curious, why would you use such a product ? There are better ways than using bottled products to deal with dead leaves and such.

I know how I would deal with this, but I can't say if is possible for you. I would get as many live daphnia, of any species, [or moina] as I could and put them in the tank. They are highly effective filter feeders who use both algae and bacteria and other infusoria as food. They can clear a tank of a greenwater problem very quickly, and if is bacterial, they will filter that too.

They might need to be in a large fine meshed net of some kind, or otherwise protected from the fish, as fish just love to eat them and you need them working, not eaten. But once they have cleared the water, they are fine fish food. You might want to keep some around in case this issue returns, though I would hope it did not once cleared up.

Filter feeding shrimp can also help this way, but they are more expensive and then you have them for some years afterward. You would need at least a few Bamboo shrimp.. atyopsis moluccensis. They can be very good for this as well, as they sift microscopic items from water very well. They do require a reasonable current to feed in, and something to perch on that places them in the current's main flow.

You say you did not clean the bio filter ? I would, but not in tank water. I would treat some fresh water and then use that to rinse out the bio media, carefully. If there is no carbon in any of the filters I would add some. If there is carbon and it is not fresh, new carbon might help a bit.

I would not use products like the one you used. I prefer to use all natural means for clean up beyond vacuuming and water changes, such as snails or shrimp or both. Not all snails reproduce in tanks, and some are very attractive, as well as highly efficient clean up crew members. Just a thought.

Btw, your English is just fine ! I only wish i could speak French, it is an official language of Canada. I just have no gift for languages other than English, to my dismay.
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Old 08-21-2013, 01:43 PM   #3
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Thank you for your fast reply.

I used the Waste Control just to try what it will do in my 29gal tank. I already used it in my 10 gallons, and worked pretty well... I just think i'll never use this again in my 29 gallon.

For the Daphnia, I already thought of it... I looked at my LFS, they only have frozen daphnia... On eBay I only found people that does'nt ship daphnia to the canada...

For the Bamboo shrimps, I think i'll not buy anything, I already owned 7 Red Cherry shrimps.

For the snails, I already have a lot of them. They came in bonus with my plants -_-

For the filter bio part, I cleaned it there's 2 week in some aquarium water in a buck. My bio's were so dirty, a lot of brown things exited from there.

I have put a weeping willow branch, wishing it will do big roots to absorb water column nutrients...

I think you have a good point for the activated carbon in the filter. I used the carbon for the first week in my filter to remove non wanted nutrients from the water, then I removed it and kept it dry. I think can be used again and would be a good idea tu use it.

After a call at LFS, they recommanded me a product CrystalClear (from Kent I guess), the guy on the phone said it have good reviews combining this product with filter wool. (Removing mechanical filter pad and replacing by filtering wool). I think i'll use it if you don't recommand me to NOT use it.

So, that's my plan:
When I'll be back to home,

- I'll generously feed my fish, wait 1 hours light open (so they eat everything for sure).
- I'll do 50% water change after they eat, add activated carbon and close lights.
- Then i'll wait 3-4 days tank covered with black towels without feeding.
- 4th day i'll change filter pad for filtering wool and add the recommanded dose of CrystalClear (removing the activated carbon in the same time).
- If everything work, I'll clean my bios in threated fresh tap water as you did mentioned.

Is there something I'm missing or it seems to be ok ?


And for your french, it's not required if you don't live in Quebec like me ^.^
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Old 08-21-2013, 02:00 PM   #4
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No, not required, but I always feel a bit guilty that I have so little French.

You can get daphnia shipped here, but it does cost a bit. There is a gentleman just twenty minutes from me who always has Daphnia Magna and gives them away to local hobbyists. He ships shrimp too. He might ship daphnia, I could look up his site if you'd like to ask. Igor is a very nice fellow.

He is on the GTAA forum, among others, which is my local forum. It's a very good one, perhaps you might wish to join it.

I should have thought of filter wool, it's pretty good at getting fine particles out of water. You might try using only wool in one filter, if that's possible, with some carbon. The product may help and I doubt it can hurt. I've never used any of the products that claim to clear tank water, I've never had the need, but if daphnia or shrimp are not possible, well, worth a try I guess. I'll go look up Crystal Clear and see what it says about it.

Edit..Crystal Clear, if that is how it is spelled, is not Kent. It is another company. It is a flocculant, which works by clumping small particles into larger ones that can then be filtered out by the wool. It may work and would be worth a try.

Kent makes Pro Clear, for fresh and for Marine, I'd have to check how it works but if the local shop has Crystal Clear, give it a try. Flocculants are not harmful at all, so it can't hurt.

Edit.. Kent makes two products that may help, if this one does not. Pro Clear, I believe is also a floccculant. Their site tells me if it does not clear the water and the cause of clouding is a lot of organics in the water, another product called Marine Poly Ox will clear the organic matter. It works by oxidizing.. which is what hydrogen peroxide, bleach, Excel and Potassium Permanganate also do.

Poly Ox is ok for fresh or marine tanks, but it can kill if used incorrectly, and only works on organic matter, but algae and bacteria are both organic matter. So if the Crystal Clear does not work, these are options to think about.

Check directions about carbon, it may have to be removed for some of these treatments. It should say on the package.

Bonne chance !
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:29 PM   #5
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Finally...

Finally, I decided to take a step back before treatement. I went to the LFS, and the guys (who he said he's experienced) told me to take the water under light as color reference. He told me that the green of my heavy plants can give a green coloration.

If I look under the light, It look like very grey more than green... So I will wait before changing water, maybe the problem can solve by itself in couple of days... If it's a cycling problem, better not changing water now...

If after a week it's always like that, I'll do what I said above.

For now, I'll only change the mechanical filter pad to filtration wool.

I don't want to break up the cycle with WC if it's a Bacterial Bloom...

Big thanks Fishfur !
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Old 08-21-2013, 07:06 PM   #6
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That's of what it look for now...

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Old 08-21-2013, 09:01 PM   #7
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Good luck and let me know how it turns out. It doesn't really look all that green, so if it does not go away, the flocculant may do the trick.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:02 PM   #8
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The easiest way to see if the water is green is by putting some in a white cup. If the water has a green tint you will see it. Then you will know if your experiencing an algae bloom or bacterial bloom. Another thing is sometimes these products actually cause water to cloud and in that case water changes usually are needed to remove the product.
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:21 PM   #9
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This is a heterotrophic bacterial bloom that is most likely due to high organic nutrient levels. The cloudiness is the actual bacteria, multiplying at super speeds to process the organic substances. They are really fast multipliers and will use up a lot of oxygen, so make sure you monitor your charges. Stop feeding for a few days and do a daily partial water change. It will clear up within a week. There is no need for additional chemicals.

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Old 08-21-2013, 09:26 PM   #10
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I reread your post and I think I know what happened here. The Nutrafin product IS heterotrophic bacteria! That's the cause of what you're seeing.

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Old 08-21-2013, 09:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivercats View Post
The easiest way to see if the water is green is by putting some in a white cup. If the water has a green tint you will see it. Then you will know if your experiencing an algae bloom or bacterial bloom. Another thing is sometimes these products actually cause water to cloud and in that case water changes usually are needed to remove the product.
Thanks dawg, you solved 50% of the problem, now I know it's green water, defenitively !!!!



Thanks
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:00 PM   #12
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You have a couple choice on how to deal with it. You can do a tank black out for 3 days but you have to completely cover the entire tank, top, sides, bottom, to where no light can get in. And NO peeking! That can actually break the black out and cause you to have to start over again. Fish will be fine for 3 days. Once the black out is over I suggest a 50% WC as there will be a lot of dead algae in the water and you want to remove a good portion of it. Then only run your lights 6 hours a day, use a timer if needed. This will ensure the tank isn't receiving too much light to trigger the bloom again. After 2-4 weeks you can slowly increase your lighting each week by 30 minutes but I don't suggest running lights longer than 8 hours daily.

The other method to clear an algae bloom is by using a UV sterilizer. That usually kills all the free floating algae within 24-48 hours. Many people on this forum have used this....
Green Killing Machine Internal UV Sterilizer with Power Head at PETCO. I realize this product may not be available in Canada but you can see what I'm talking about.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:22 AM   #13
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UV Sterilizer is a bit expensive... For now I'll start to see what my blackout is doing.

I did 70% PWC, I'll blackout for 4 days, and take in consideration your 6 hours light advice at beginning.

I'll do 50% PWC after the blackout period.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:28 AM   #14
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Who know what's the cause?

Is there anybody who know what's the main cause of my algea bloom?

There's no sunlight going on my tank...

My lights are 2x39w T5HO (Powerglo + FluvalWhite)
Injecting 1 bbl second CO2 (that much because I have a HOB filter and topless tank)
- Dosing all seachems fertilizer with recommanded doses (but only once a week)
- Usually no carbon in the filters
- Never had ammonia or nitrite spike...
- Nitrates are always below <20ppm (now it's zero)
- I have a lot of plants

Can it be the moonlight I recently bought (2 week ago) ?


currently 11 neons/cardinalis, 7 killiefish lampeye, 3 siamensis algea eater, 7 red cherry shrimps..


Maybe is it possible that it's a new tank syndrome ? I setuped my aquarium 2 month ago. I did a 9 days cycle with a betta. Ammonia switched to nitrites then nitrites to nitrates, then I concluded the cycle was done (in 9 days!?!) ?
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Old 08-22-2013, 01:25 PM   #15
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This forum...

Seriously, I really like this forum, more than the other where I did suscribed. You guys give good advice, you don't insult the aquarist that is not a professional, and you found my problem

Thank you guys for your contribution !


Special thanks to Rivercats to have find my water color, and to Fishfur for the good advices !

I'll give you news in 4-5 days, see if all this worked.
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:24 PM   #16
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Often when nitrates drop below 10ppm cyanobacteria can more easily take hold. Other reasons vary from lighting left on too long, too many dissolved organics in the water, and on the list goes. It has nothing to do with a new tank set up. And cyanobacteria can also come in when new plants and such are added to a tank. One of the reasons why for the past 30+ years I have used a hydrogen peroxide dip on all new plants before adding them to my tanks.
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Old 08-22-2013, 04:11 PM   #17
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bleach

I'm using bleach since 1 month on all my new plants. I used it too to clear my anubia black leafes, now they green again
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:30 PM   #18
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Be very careful using a bleach solution as many of the more delicate plants don't react well to it at all.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:40 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvincent View Post
Is there anybody who know what's the main cause of my algea bloom?

There's no sunlight going on my tank...

My lights are 2x39w T5HO (Powerglo + FluvalWhite)
Injecting 1 bbl second CO2 (that much because I have a HOB filter and topless tank)
- Dosing all seachems fertilizer with recommanded doses (but only once a week)
- Usually no carbon in the filters
- Never had ammonia or nitrite spike...
- Nitrates are always below <20ppm (now it's zero)
- I have a lot of plants

Can it be the moonlight I recently bought (2 week ago) ?


currently 11 neons/cardinalis, 7 killiefish lampeye, 3 siamensis algea eater, 7 red cherry shrimps..


Maybe is it possible that it's a new tank syndrome ? I setuped my aquarium 2 month ago. I did a 9 days cycle with a betta. Ammonia switched to nitrites then nitrites to nitrates, then I concluded the cycle was done (in 9 days!?!) ?
led moonlights dont cause algae ... get a uv from ebay for like 30 bucks.
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Old 08-23-2013, 10:04 AM   #20
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20cc View Post
led moonlights dont cause algae ... get a uv from ebay for like 30 bucks.
Yeah, 40 bucks + shipping to canada, 60$-70$ minimum.
That's the cheapest I found Aquarium Submersible 5W UV Sterilizer W Built IN Pump | eBay

I need a pump with that UV Sterilizer, I do NOT have a canister filter, only HOB

And a UV Sterilizer will be ugly in my 29 gallon tank... I should use it once ? Or all the time ?
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