What the heck, Otos??!

[threnjen]

This is all my otos do, day in day out. Up at the top.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

This is all my otos do, day in day out. Up at the top.

That's unusual! More surface agitation (re direct outlet), and maybe more flow? More air stones.

What is the system spec. etc?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Is that a spray bar return at the back?

 

[threnjen]

It's definitely not an issue of dissolved oxygen or flow, as my water has a lot of agitation. The display is a 90g and underneath a 29g sump. There is lots of baffling in the sump and a waterfall so the water is well oxygenated, not to mention the fact the water falls into an overflow and down through several trickle filter drawers.

That's a spray bar return at the back I suppose, but it's DIY from the sump pump. There is tons of flow and current in the tank, I have a 400gph pump with another "spray bar" at the back right of the tank creating a current.

There's definitely not a deficit of either oxygen or flow. They aren't "gasping" at the surface or anything, either. They are just hanging out there, all the time. It's really weird.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Can't see all that in the pic!
From that pic, I see a spray bar vertically mounted and flat surface conditions.

So I just asked, (I'm sure you test given our previous conversations) I think it's bizarre they stay at the top, normally they hang out on or under leaves and wood, occasionally glass, like its a strange phenomenon to me. It happens but not 24/7.

If you move towards them they move away, to cover, if not something is wrong.
That's a typical response from small fish, ottos flee, standard.


Keeping Otocinclus catfish in the aquarium | Features | Practical Fishkeeping
(Copied)
Regardless of species, all Otocinclus need the same care. It’s partly because their small size that they suffer in dirty water.

This is one reason why they thrive in planted aquaria with low stocking densities and immaculate water quality.

You’ll need powerful, mature filters capable of processing the aquarium volume at least three times an hour. Aim for no measurable ammonia or nitrite and low to no (0–20 ppm) nitrate. Weekly 25–30% water changes will help refresh the system and keep everyone happy.

Chemistry is not critical and, provided the water is kept clean and fresh, temperatures between 22-28°C (72-82°F) and a neutral to slightly acidic pH and soft water will make them feel at home.

Otocinclus naturally occur in large shoals and are quite sociable, so if you want to try them go for at least six — or more if you have the space and algal growth.

Healthy fish will be very active during the day and diligently crop soft algae, diatoms and aufwuchs from any submerged surfaces in your aquarium.

Provide some pre-soaked branches or bogwood, rounded stones and vigorous aquatic plants.

Their small teeth are not really capable of breaking through tough plant tissues, so if they exhaust their supply of fresh algae they will need to be fed on something else. The stomachs of preserved, wild-caught specimens are typically filled with algae and fine organic matter.

I’ve found that Otocinclus in captivity will have a go at most prepared and frozen foods. They enjoy tablets, algae wafers, blanched spinach and courgette.

>

Practical Fishkeeping is where I learned the basics in the uk they are pretty much the biggest fish magazine you can buy. Them and a shelf full of books.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

What is your quarantine protocol?

Have they been treated for anything yet?

 

[J.Mcpeak]

(I think the idea of sump baffles is to remove air bubbles so they don't enter the reef system) air bubbles don't mix with some reef creatures, sponges in particular could be killed by a single air bubble.

The baffled refugium was inspired for the marine environment the basic elements were taken over to freshwater by mainly keepers of discus as a way to expand system volume and hide equipment much as a reef keeper will do. Side line tasks can include removal of nitrate and pH stability over a 24hr period. In a reef environment small creatures like Copepods grow here too.

Gaseous exchange happens at or near the surface of a water body, by agitating it we increase the surface area thus improving the gas exchange mechanism.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

120 litre tank | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Surface agitation example.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/92891884@N04/10695649834/

Example 2

http://www.flickr.com/photos/92891884@N04/12927328515/

Same tank as top pic, eg3, 120litre


(Same 120 tank with poor agitation)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92891884@N04/12570419163/


Edit- a high flow is related to but not the same as.
(Sorry if it all sounds mean, it's a presentation of facts)
Keep smiling!

 

[jstewart23]

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[threnjen]

J McPeak I know you're trying to help. My sump is not set up with baffles in the manner of a saltwater sump as my sump is not designed for air bubble elimination. I assure you I fully understand oxygenation, flow and agitation. My water gets crazy agitation via the overflow front box, the overflow back box, my trickle drawers, and my baffle waterfall. Ah, and my bubble wall in my sump. My system is absolutely rife with movement and it is set up in this way to make the display as attractive as possible while remaining uncluttered. I am not at all concerned with my level of dissolved oxygen. My system has much better surface agitation and oxygenation than any HOB or canister can provide. I prefer not to have a lot of surface agitation in my display because this increases rate of offgassing of CO2 from the water and I have a large amount of plants. When I eventually add an in-line CO2 reactor, I want it to enter the water column with a minimum of surface agitation.
I've never ever seen a fish gasping at the surface in my tank... Were that to happen it would be trivial for me to lower the overflow intake .5cm and great a larger ripple from the top hole of the pump return. However the design of my sump should easily be returning oxygen saturated water to my system. It doesn't matter where the oxygen enters the water, only that it does.

The otos have wandered off somewhere now that the lights are off. curious.

My chemistry is correct and my base parameters are well suited to otos (soft water, neutral pH). My otos never took prepared foods even in QT where they lived for a week. Then they lived for a week in my sump (I have a UV sterilizer between the sump and the display, so nothing bad is reaching the display). I moved them earlier than planned because they wouldn't eat prepared foods in the QT tank. Otherwise I would have kept them there for 3-4 weeks. So it goes. They never received any medications.

 

[threnjen]

Tom Barr says:

"Often with larger tanks, the air stones make the tank murky and lifts up and suspends detritus.

Even aggressive CO2 misting can cause this.

Good ripple, but not enough to break the surface.

I'm one of the few folks that has added pure O2...and also measured O2 with different sets up and filtration in planted tanks.

I like wet/drys, good ripple, lots of flow etc.

I've never been fond of night time airstones."

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Tom Barr says:

"Often with larger tanks, the air stones make the tank murky and lifts up and suspends detritus.

Even aggressive CO2 misting can cause this.

Good ripple, but not enough to break the surface.

I'm one of the few folks that has added pure O2...and also measured O2 with different sets up and filtration in planted tanks.

I like wet/drys, good ripple, lots of flow etc.

I've never been fond of night time airstones."

Don't know Tom Barr, you want detritus to become suspended! In every tank big or small!
That way the filter can pick it up. In a planted tank you most definitely want O2 at night time. Absolutely no question! (Unless you have an ultra low stock level.)
(When the lights go off, plants use O2) you should try to drive off co2 outside of the photoperiod. They use bubblers to help keep co2 in the water course for longer.

doesn't UV among other things, destroy algae cells? That's why pond folks use them! Remove all algae busting doo dads. (I said that before) (depends on wavelength) if it's run inline I assume you worked out the correct flow rate so it works properly? If it's a separate loop it should be a simple test.

Maybe they are at the top because that's the only place there is any food?

Maybe bacteria or parasitic. I always treat even if fish look fine, simply so I know what it isn't. (Most if not all wild caught/river farmed fish have one type or another of something nasty) these are readily mixed up into a super soup by your LFS, I'm sure most shop acquired fish have some type of pathogen.

Some people don't like air stones because of the noise, it's as simple as that.

 

[Coursair]

Don't know Tom Barr, you want detritus to become suspended! In every tank big or small!
That way the filter can pick it up. In a planted tank you most definitely want O2 at night time. Absolutely no question! (Unless you have an ultra low stock level.)
(When the lights go off, plants use O2) you should try to drive off co2 outside of the photoperiod. They use bubblers to help keep co2 in the water course for longer.

doesn't UV among other things, destroy algae cells? That's why pond folks use them! Remove all algae busting doo dads. (I said that before) (depends on wavelength) if it's run inline I assume you worked out the correct flow rate so it works properly? If it's a separate loop it should be a simple test.

Maybe they are at the top because that's the only place there is any food.

Tom Barr is one of the Gurus of planted tanks. He has this site http://www.barrreport.com. He is a member of my club and very well respected. Here is a bit of his background http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/library/15098-get-know-tom-barr.html

Now of course you can disagree with him, but his tanks are absolutely lovely. Just google him and see pics of his tanks. If you have proper filtration, air stones should not be needed. Some people use them in high CO2 tanks to de-gas the aquarium after lights out, to get the CO2 out so the fish don't suffer.

With planted tanks we want some detritus, it's called plant food
Thus we don't gravel vac unless it's away from plants or hovering above the substrate.

In large tanks we sometimes use power heads to make sure water is circulating well. Koralias are a popular brand.

I keep heavily planted small tanks and have never had fish gasping at the top.

But it's weird about the Otos. It wouldn't hurt to try a few things. If an air stone works, great

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Tom Barr is one of the Gurus of planted tanks. He has this site Aquarium Plants - Barr Report. He is a member of my club and very well respected. Here is a bit of his background Get to Know... Tom Barr - Library - Aquatic Plant Central

Now of course you can disagree with him, but his tanks are absolutely lovely. Just google him and see pics of his tanks. If you have proper filtration, air stones should not be needed. Some people use them in high CO2 tanks to de-gas the aquarium after lights out, to get the CO2 out so the fish don't suffer.

With planted tanks we want some detritus, it's called plant food
Thus we don't gravel vac unless it's away from plants or hovering above the substrate.

In large tanks we sometimes use power heads to make sure water is circulating well. Koralias are a popular brand.

I keep heavily planted small tanks and have never had fish gasping at the top.

But it's weird about the Otos. It wouldn't hurt to try a few things. If an air stone works, great

I don't disagree, I just have my viewpoint based on keeping fish not plants. I have some plant knowledge because fish like plants. I am a fish keeper not planted tank keeper.

I agree with fertiliser quote, I say the same thing, I still gravel vac because there is always plenty left behind. I have never used Co2. Daily/weekly dosing and bulbs, you would say lo-tech.

After lights out you should use an air stone in a tank with fish in. (That's simplified, even in a non Co2 set up.) perhaps it should say where necessary? (If the plants are pearling all day long, the O2 budget may not reach deficit before dawn?)

(What is proper filtration? Some suggest under 2times turnover for planted tanks, some say 5-7 times, other places 20-50 times depends on the fish?) filtration should be geared toward keeping fish alive.

(I have many systems all with different set ups as far as filtration/flow/agitation are concerned. Each tailored to the fish)

Just maybe, the suspension is happening in such a system because it is geared towards plants and a lower turnover rate per hour?

 

[FWFishTanks]

It's not that thy are starving, they are really sensitive to water condition. I'm not sure exactly the parameters, but I think they like soft water. Good Luck!

 

[threnjen]

I want to say how much I appreciate all the input in this thread. Truth be told it's just confirming what I suspected, which is that everything I am doing is fine.

If anything, I don't have enough algae. I grow a lot less on my glass since adding the UV sterilizer, since I have the flow low enough so that algae won't live through it (but still high enough for proper turnover, no new debates). BUT I do grow SOME on my glass so there should be stuff for them to eat. Plus there is algae/biofilm on tank surfaces. Plus I do add the prepared foods.

They have a food source, and the parameters of my tank are all 100% within the proper norms, and particularly suited for otos. So in conclusion... If they're gonna live, they're gonna live. I don't feel I can do much more.

I will try the cucumber though, still need to get one (and I was at the grocery store last night, doh!)

 

[GodFan]

I want to say how much I appreciate all the input in this thread. Truth be told it's just confirming what I suspected, which is that everything I am doing is fine.

If anything, I don't have enough algae. I grow a lot less on my glass since adding the UV sterilizer, since I have the flow low enough so that algae won't live through it (but still high enough for proper turnover, no new debates). BUT I do grow SOME on my glass so there should be stuff for them to eat. Plus there is algae/biofilm on tank surfaces. Plus I do add the prepared foods.

They have a food source, and the parameters of my tank are all 100% within the proper norms, and particularly suited for otos. So in conclusion... If they're gonna live, they're gonna live. I don't feel I can do much more.

I will try the cucumber though, still need to get one (and I was at the grocery store last night, doh!)

Just on an uplifting note if you do get some survivors after they are established you have to nuke em to kill em lol

 

[Caliban07]

I actually thought of growing algae on glass discs in a separate tank and sticking them on the inside of my main.

 

[preyas1207]

well sucks for you otos are very sensitive to water conditions they must have 0 nitrates and others so thats kinda hard and temp need sto be constant

 

[threnjen]

I actually thought of growing algae on glass discs in a separate tank and sticking them on the inside of my main.

I've read about that too, maybe I'll do that. My snails would probably enjoy it too.