When is the pH to low for fish?

[b4tn]

I was advised to turn up my CO2 until my fish start gasping at the top then turn it down a notch. Well it is at 6.58 right now the fish still are acting normal and my KH is 8. I had reported 7 before but I was not adding the correct amount of water to the test tube. I have some Angels, SAE, Mollies, Supposedly some Amano shrimp but I havent seen them in weeks, and some red tailed tetras. Should I keep lowering the PH or call it good?

 

[malkore]

Who advised this??

You have 76ppm of CO2, about double what you need as the upper limit. Turn it back down. A pH that low could have killed the shrimp.

Please read up on CO2 testing. Apparently you're not referencing the Kh/pH chart...and don't know how much CO2 is too much.

 

[b4tn]

It was Tom Barr. I am referencing the chart and know excactly how much C02 was in there but was told as long as its not harming the fish it was ok.

 

[Tiffi]

As far as I know Co2 about 35ppm can already be deadly for fish!
Wonder your fishes are still alive!

Do you have any peatmoss or something else that might lower your pH besides the CO2?

With a kH of 8 and no other buffers in the tank I would go down till the pH is about 7. Then you should have around 24ppm of Co2 in the tank. that would be good and sufficient.

 

[b4tn]

Here is the thing. There was a question as to if my KH is accurate. It has been 8 always 8 and never changes regardless of water changes. With my CO2 at 35ppm, NO3 at 15ppm, and Phosphate at 1.5ppm and I was still getting massive algae outbreaks. Now with those levels I should have no issues. So the KH question came up and it was advised that I turn up the CO2 becasue maybe it was not accurate.

 

[b4tn]

Also, I think CO2 can be at high levels as long as O2 is also good. Durring the day it looks like a rain storm of tiney 02 bubles from the plants all over the tank.

 

[Tiffi]

That probably looks really cool. I'm still waiting for my regulator to arrive sometime and hook up the CO2.

But with that high levels of CO2 and so many bubbles it can't be up to the carbon anymore that you have so much algae! DO you have a link to the other thread so I can read over it, what you've been talking about so far?

 

[b4tn]

here is the link,

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1083

 

[greenmaji]

b4tn.. you have to be a subsriber to the Barr report to look at your link.. maybe someone will do a copy paste job here so we might know what was said to you..

 

[Tiffi]

I think I've found the thread he was talking about in this forum:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=62331

 

[b4tn]

I hope I dont get in trouble for posting the info from this sight But I am beyond frsutration now!!!! I am doing EVERYTHING right. My fert levels are as recomended CO2 is above the recomended level yet I am still getting Algae issues. After my 3 day blackout my water was crystal clear and Algae was gone. Water is getting getting cludy again and agae is coming back!

I have been having issues dosing KNO3. I am having algae issues even with over 30ppm of CO2. I have pretty much determined the issue is with KN03. Here is the problem. I will do a 50% water change and dose 15ppm KNO3 and 1.5PPM of PO4. Just to verify this I will take measurements. The next day I will test and KNO3 will be nearly 0 and PO4 will be at or around 1ppm. It has been like this for a couple weeks now. It seems the only way I can keep KNO3 above 10 ppm is to dose about 15 PPM per day. I read the EI method and to be honest it kind of lost me. I would have to dose 20 ppm or more every other day to keep KNO3 at a decent level. which seems to me to be very excessive! Any suggestions?

All my tank parameters and pictures are here
http://plantgeek.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5476
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:13 AM
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Default Re: Uptake/dosing problems.
I'm adding about 12mg/l of NO3 every day in my tanks and I have 3wpg.

In looking over your setup (and your pictures) I'm wondering what in the world is in the LFS recommended nutrient "mud" that you have under your gravel?

Is this like a Dennerle Deponit or JBL Aquabasis plus? I've used both of these and found them frustrating because bizarre things start happening and I have no clue exactly what's in them. So I've since dropped these types of undergravel nutrient layers and just use Flourite.
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: Uptake/dosing problems.
Your wood may also be playing games with your CO2/KH/pH relationship.

Raise your CO2 higher. As long as the fish aren't looking stressed out or gasping at the surface, you're fine.
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Old 10-01-2005, 08:38 AM
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Default Re: Uptake/dosing problems.
Yup, its the dennerle Deponit Mix 200. It came in a large bucket and lists:
Molybdene
Zinc
Magnisium
Calcium
Potasium
Aluminum
sodium
Lithium
VanadiumI
Iron
And many others in German

They had several different base substrates including the JBL and some other more expensive ones and the guy said this is the best he has for a nutrient rich substrate.

I really wish I could get my hands on eco complete or something like that but it just isnt available to me.

Its good to see someone knows what I have though
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Old 10-01-2005, 11:50 AM
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Default Re: Uptake/dosing problems.
Since you're in Germany, this online place had lots of goodies, including Flourite (though they don't always have it in stock though they can get it for you):

http://www.aquaristic.net/

This place in the UK also has Eco Complete and Flourite:

http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/default.asp

I'd still say to raise your CO2 levels...
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Old 10-01-2005, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: Uptake/dosing problems.
Thanks for the advice. I am a bit nervous about upping CO2 My KH has always been 7 and has never changed and when I do 50% water changes my PH rises to 7.4. But, I decided to give it a shot. For my fishes sake though I don’t think I will go any more than 40 ppm. That brings my PH down to 6.7. But it has been slowly dropping all day today and the fish don’t seem to mind.
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Old 10-01-2005, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Uptake/dosing problems.
b4tn, you may be just the candidate for tom's new substrate he is coming out with. it sounds like this product may be the cat's meow. after his testing this should be the answer to alot of problems related to substrates. i use flourite,onyx sand and ec. ec has to be strained very good to get out large shunks to suit me. i've found that plants may start a little faster in eq but it allso seems to get dirty very easy. seachem is still the best. regards,cornhusker
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Old 10-01-2005, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Uptake/dosing problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b4tn
Thanks for the advice. I am a bit nervous about upping CO2 My KH has always been 7 and has never changed and when I do 50% water changes my PH rises to 7.4. But, I decided to give it a shot. For my fishes sake though I don’t think I will go any more than 40 ppm. That brings my PH down to 6.7. But it has been slowly dropping all day today and the fish don’t seem to mind.


You can see my response on PG.
If you add CaCO3, how can the KH be the same? If must change or the plants/tank are consuming it.

It still seems like CO2.

Ruling out nutrients is a fairly straight forward process.
That leaves you with CO2 as the variable.

Just be careful when lowering your pH beyond the theoretical ppm level and you should be fine.

Then when the fish respond negatively, simply raise the pH up just a little.
Also, make sure there is some surface movement, seems counter productive but does improve the tank health and allows the fish some relief should the plants not use the CO2 during the day.


Regards,
Tom Barr
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Old 10-01-2005, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: Uptake/dosing problems.
Actually I am not dosing CaCO3 unless you mean CaCO2. THis is the trace mix I am using. and it is very little, about 5 ml of the below mix 3 times a week then a water change.

500 mL Water
1 TBL MgSO4 (Magnesium Sulfate) = Mg + 0.03 ppm/mL or Mg + 0.6 ppm/20 mL Dose
1 TBL Plantex CSM + B (Iron and Traces) = Fe + 0.0025 ppm/mL or Fe + 0.05 ppm/20 mL Dose
1 TSP Iron Chelate
1 TSP CaCO2


I was wondering about my KH also so I bought another test kit. Both kits read 7 dkh whenever I measure. It never changes.

You mentioned water movement, all I have is my Fluval canister filter. Should I get a another power head for surculation? Or maybe add an airstone?