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Old 05-18-2004, 09:15 PM   #1
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White Dragon

Here's my newest fish. It was given to me as a cull by a local breeder to insure none of my other discus are still carrying the "plague". This is some magnificent fish. I've had it 4 days and no sign of ilness. I'll know for sure ina week.

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Old 05-18-2004, 09:16 PM   #2
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Apparently I can no long attach a photo. . Well anyone interested can see the fish in my gallery.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:48 PM   #3
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Here it is:
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:48 PM   #4
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Who could not love this fish? If this is a cull...... 8O
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:50 PM   #5
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Thats beautiful BrianNY!
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:00 PM   #6
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Amazing! What a cool-looking discus!
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Old 05-19-2004, 12:24 AM   #7
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Wow...scarey looking...



(Anna is wiping her mouth off with a towl)
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:25 AM   #8
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Hey, thanks all ! Especially to you TG for posting the pic. I wonder why I can't post them? Oh well.

It's day 5 and the culls haven't shown any symptoms yet. It'll be a great relief to know that this plague is over with.

About that fish in the pic....... Frank at Edgewater Discus is one of the top two discus breeders in the country (IMO). All of his fish are healthy and he will only sell top quality. I don't know if it's right to plug him but he sure has earned my respect and gratitude. For anyone wanting high quality discus, PM me and I'll put you in touch.
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Old 05-19-2004, 03:50 PM   #9
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Beautiful fish, Brian! I hope he/she? remains healthy.

Since our discussion at GCAS, I've been thinking about the discus plague. Do you suppose it's due to a compromised immune system resulting from excessive inbreeding within the hobby? How many discus breeders are there in the country and what percentage of the discus fish sold do they supply? I suppose that the discus breeding community is pretty close-knit - perhaps a bad recessive gene has been spread from breeder to breeder. Do the top breeders ever dip back into the wild genepool to strengthen their lines? I just find it interesting/odd/tragic that this disease has hit the hobby so hard.
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Old 05-19-2004, 03:57 PM   #10
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Interesting, QTOFFER,...I wonder if "lesser" value Discus closer to wild (and not bred in any specific manner for any particular traits) are more resilient?
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Old 05-19-2004, 05:22 PM   #11
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Yo, man (not Yeoman )

That White Dragon really rocks. I think what I like most is that it's still got some faint markings, but has a distinct white color. I've seen a few plain white discus (albino? bred this way?) and they can be less interesting. This one combines the best of both worlds (reticulated pattern and nice white color) for a really cool look.

Hey--I'm glad the new guy's working out. You deserve a break after that horrible scare/loss!!

QTOFFER, that's an interesting idea, and no doubt the case in a lot of selective breeding situations. Would it have to be a bad recessive gene? I'm not that good with genetics, so I wonder whether reduced immune systems in highly-inbred populations are the same as the other traits we tend to associate with inbreeding (e.g. deleterious genetic mutations such as crooked spines). Or is there another biological reason for weakening, which might be secondary to genetics. E.g. reduced resistence to a pathogen present in the wild after many generations of breeding?

so....

BrianNY, or anyone else who experienced this:
Was there any indication that wild discus were more resistant to this illness than highly-inbred discus?
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Old 05-19-2004, 05:29 PM   #12
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This is an excellent issue for discussion - as it is certainly something I have been thinking about in other cichlids. Sometimes the inbreeding appears to create dwarfism, which I personally don't mind all that much, depending upon the fish, but you wonder what is next down the road. There are certainly a plethora of other less desirable physical traits that crop up, like Madasa mentioned.

I am very curious about whether suceptibility to illness is a part of it, and if so, how long did it take to happen, and is this happening in other, perhaps less popular breeds that have been captive bred for a long time. I know genetic lines are heavily discussed among betta breeders, so there might be something to learn from what they know.
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Old 05-20-2004, 11:41 AM   #13
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Yes TG, this does make for interesting discussion. I'm certain this round of disease was not caused by inbreeding. I've a friend in CT who lost 30 wilds so the immunity factor is purely pathological.

IMO, this was caused from Asian imports. The Asian breeders habitually use antibiotics when shipping fish. I think that this caused a mutated bacterial strain to develop which has been devastating to discus.

Discus are incredibly hardy. If you just think about what my fish went through, to have bounced back the way they did is a testament to their durability.

I'm also positive that inbreeding issues have arisen in discus. Expecially with the leopard snakeskin strain. But my experience hasn't shown that any one strain is more susceptible to disease than any other. For some reason (and I think it has to do with the heavy slime coat discus produce), the discus become an opportunistic target for a lot of bacterial infections that other species don't succumb to. They also have a very short digestive tract which can cause a host of problems. But with proper feeding and keeping the tank clean, these fish are very easy to keep.
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Old 05-20-2004, 01:14 PM   #14
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I think after all the heartache here..I agree Brian. About an asian connection.
As I research and try to find what went wrong, I definitely think the asian breeders are the connection. And I saw a link that I think explained it all in simple terms...

It's not calling out their ability as so much that tropical places always have more bugaboos, the asian animals raised in ponds therefore exposed to more bugs (which means nothing uuntil stress, or a non-resistant population being exposed)

I am more wanting to place "blame" on importers. I think that is where sloppy medicating, QT and selection comes to play and causes disaster.
Here is Anna's found link:
http://www.practical-water-gardens.c...article003.htm


tha A fish/B fish thing make sense..doh! I always forget to apply single specie facts to other fish as a model. I was squawking about spring koi disease like months ago. I even though about it affecting the betta for maybe a day.But it is a pond thing. And a different discus board poo-pooed the thought of aeronomas or pseudonomas being a possible culprit because the betta seemed also to get it (when cookie was first a prob) and it was so lightening fast. But gourami species are very susceptible to bacterias for some reason and hard to treat for them. SPECIAL Colisa. And most the betta here porbably have immune systems depressed by inbreeding (new factor since the vet report)
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Old 05-20-2004, 02:28 PM   #15
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Yes Christmasfish but...... All our tropicals are tropical. The problem comes when they medicate indiscremenantly.
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Old 05-20-2004, 02:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patryuji
Interesting, QTOFFER,...I wonder if "lesser" value Discus closer to wild (and not bred in any specific manner for any particular traits) are more resilient?
I would imagine that to be the case for most fish. Evolution has favored discus fish that possess traits necessary for survival (ie disease resistance). Human breeders select for entirely different traits that may or may not have a negative impact on survival.

A good analogy may be hepatitus susceptibility between lab mice and wild field mice. Lab mice are an example of inbreeding taken to the extreme. If mouse hepatitus somehow enters a lab colony, it will pretty much wipe it out. Nearly all wild mice, OTOH, have antibodies to the hepatitus virus - meaning that they were exposed to the disease and survived.
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Old 05-20-2004, 03:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianNY
Yes Christmasfish but...... All our tropicals are tropical. The problem comes when they medicate indiscremenantly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christmasfish
I am more wanting to place "blame" on importers. I think that is where sloppy medicating, QT and selection comes to play and causes disaster.

that's mostly wot I said... I it blurred with the other wonderings and straw graspins

Though I don't know about many aspects of todays fish breeding in asia ..I DO know retail.. the fastest -cheapest-most lucrative item is what gets mass produced if possible


All are tropical but not all tropicals are equal. And a SA tropical fish may not have proper evolutionary backing to fight off regional bugs like fish from that region can.. maybe so?
Not all tropicals are good candidates for mass breeeding or pond raising. And not many are as sensetive to certain factors as discus.. or labyrinthes. Many are still just wild caught (chocolates and borneo dwarf croaking gourami)
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Old 05-22-2004, 11:33 AM   #18
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Hey there Brian,

Good to see ya. I know you've been extremely busy since Atlanta. I done a little reading on DaaH when the post was at 28 pages (thats been well over a month ago). All I can say is WOW! I hope something good has surfaced from such a tragic epidemic.

I tip my hat to you Brian. Rather than pointing fingers and slinging poo. You stepped up to the plate and tried to help figure out "why??". If you have the answers to "why", it can make a significant difference in the future

Some beautiful fish you have there. Keep up the great work!
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Old 05-22-2004, 01:54 PM   #19
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Thanks Mojo Troll. Yeah, I think Atlanta caused a rift in the discus world. It's coming together again. As of today, I don't think anyone has all the answers.
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Old 05-24-2004, 11:02 PM   #20
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Simply beautiful fish, Brian ! An extraordinary specimen, but of course that could be said for all you keep.
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