Why does everyone ask about nitrates

[Potluck]

Im glad to know how to properly check my nitrate now, gonna add all my fish into advisor after my water change and fish get fed and calmed down, ty Caleb, laeris, coralbandit, everyone that helped

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[Potluck]

So i took 20 gallons out approx 35% I'll check nitrates tomorrow and go from there

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[jarrod0987]

Figure I will throw in my 2 cents as this is my favorite subject.
In days gone by we (The community) did not even know about nitrates.
Then we got a test kit but it said as long as it was under 80 ppm it was non toxic.
We did water changes to keep it under 40 ppm.
Later we came to believe high nitrates caused Algae and so we started keeping them Under 10 ppm or even 5 ppm. That is really hard in a fish only system with only WC.
In planted tanks, they get removed by plants if you have enough and are seen as plant food, not a contaminant.

The we discovered carbon dosing (mostly in saltwater tanks) and found that corals also need Nitrates in a small amount and that too low can even cause some types of algae such as cyanobacteria (AKA Blue Green Algae). This seems to happen when Nitrates are low and Phosphate and Dissolved organics are high.
So now we realize a little nitrate is a good thing.
Some are starting to believe even 80 ppm of nitrate is probably not toxic in the short term but we like to keep it lower anyways. Anything under 20 ppm I would not loose sleep over in a freshwater tank.

As far as getting rid of it:
In a planted tank use plants. Add more if needed.
Soil seems to really keep it at 0 ppm. I have to add nitrates in for my plants now.
Sand does not have this effect as far as I can tell. Unless you have a lot and it has to be a fine size. Still...over time it may fill up with waste and stop working.

In a fish only system, the best way seems to use dentirification with a product similar to denitrate or Matrix by Seachem. Deep sand beds seem to take a while to start working, then work well, then eventually break down as they become clogged. Carbon dosing works very well but in fresh water leaves a black sludge that needs to be vacuumed out or will break down and return the nitrate to the water again.

This has been my experience. I have been very interested in nitrate for about 15 years now. Turns out it really was not as big of a problem as we thought. Phosphate in a fish only system seems to cause more issues. Which are now also hotly debated That is a whole different post

 

[Caliban07]

Figure I will throw in my 2 cents as this is my favorite subject.

In days gone by we (The community) did not even know about nitrates.

Then we got a test kit but it said as long as it was under 80 ppm it was non toxic.

We did water changes to keep it under 40 ppm.

Later we came to believe high nitrates caused Algae and so we started keeping them Under 10 ppm or even 5 ppm. That is really hard in a fish only system with only WC.

In planted tanks, they get removed by plants if you have enough and are seen as plant food, not a contaminant.



The we discovered carbon dosing (mostly in saltwater tanks) and found that corals also need Nitrates in a small amount and that too low can even cause some types of algae such as cyanobacteria (AKA Blue Green Algae). This seems to happen when Nitrates are low and Phosphate and Dissolved organics are high.

So now we realize a little nitrate is a good thing.

Some are starting to believe even 80 ppm of nitrate is probably not toxic in the short term but we like to keep it lower anyways. Anything under 20 ppm I would not loose sleep over in a freshwater tank.



As far as getting rid of it:

In a planted tank use plants. Add more if needed.

Soil seems to really keep it at 0 ppm. I have to add nitrates in for my plants now.

Sand does not have this effect as far as I can tell. Unless you have a lot and it has to be a fine size. Still...over time it may fill up with waste and stop working.



In a fish only system, the best way seems to use dentirification with a product similar to denitrate or Matrix by Seachem. Deep sand beds seem to take a while to start working, then work well, then eventually break down as they become clogged. Carbon dosing works very well but in fresh water leaves a black sludge that needs to be vacuumed out or will break down and return the nitrate to the water again.



This has been my experience. I have been very interested in nitrate for about 15 years now. Turns out it really was not as big of a problem as we thought. Phosphate in a fish only system seems to cause more issues. Which are now also hotly debated That is a whole different post

Well it's hard to believe that nitrates of quantities in and around 100ppm are detrimental considering the various studies citing lethal concentrations in the several hundreds. I don't think enough is known. Could be species related, size related etc.

Thing about plants and nitrate is that plants will only take up nitrate as a source of nitrogen if ammonia is scarce. It may not be that nitrates are low in planted tanks because the plants are consuming them but rather that the plants are utilising parts of the ammonia before it becomes nitrates through nitrification. But then again, while it may be a general consensus that plants prefer ammonia over nitrates, there will be species of plants that can utilise them more efficiently if need be.

I think ultimately, if the tank is not balanced and you have rapidly rising/changing parameters there will be other factors suppressing the fish, not just nitrates.

This isn't a post negating the need for water changes. Balance is key and if you have too many fish for your ecosystem something has got to give. Nitrates can be kept under control in many ways. In my opinion, keeping a correctly stocked tank with sensible feeding and live plants, and providing your tap is low in nitrates, they will rarely become a problem.


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[Masha]

Potluck, you might want to try measuring your water with a new nitrate test kit. I'm wondering if the fact that you've not been shaking your reagents properly before, now means that there is too much of whatever you're shaking up in the mixture, and your readings are not accurate as a result.

 

[jarrod0987]

Well it's hard to believe that nitrates of quantities in and around 100ppm are detrimental considering the various studies citing lethal concentrations in the several hundreds. I don't think enough is known. Could be species related, size related etc.

Thing about plants and nitrate is that plants will only take up nitrate as a source of nitrogen if ammonia is scarce. It may not be that nitrates are low in planted tanks because the plants are consuming them but rather that the plants are utilising parts of the ammonia before it becomes nitrates through nitrification. But then again, while it may be a general consensus that plants prefer ammonia over nitrates, there will be species of plants that can utilise them more efficiently if need be.

I think ultimately, if the tank is not balanced and you have rapidly rising/changing parameters there will be other factors suppressing the fish, not just nitrates.

This isn't a post negating the need for water changes. Balance is key and if you have too many fish for your ecosystem something has got to give. Nitrates can be kept under control in many ways. In my opinion, keeping a correctly stocked tank with sensible feeding and live plants, and providing your tap is low in nitrates, they will rarely become a problem.


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I agree several hundred PPM seem to be no issue in many cases. The only reason any of us came up with the 80 ppm number is because the old API test kit (With solid tablets and stirring rod ) told us it was
Do you remember that one?

 

[skylane]

Hi guys, just a thought as to the water source, can different sources: city, well,spring water, or even RO water, have an affect to this problem, even in an older tank?
Just following along [emoji39] .

Clem.

 

[Caliban07]

I agree several hundred PPM seem to be no issue in many cases. The only reason any of us came up with the 80 ppm number is because the old API test kit (With solid tablets and stirring rod ) told us it was

Do you remember that one?

Well there must have been a reason they suggested that? Perhaps they suggested buying API nitrate clear to combat the high nitrates. I've no doubt nitrates are bad for fish so it makes sense to keep them as low as possible. As for the actual number.....I guess this is a topic for another discussion though.


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[Potluck]

I was told never to clean filter until it wasn't flowing well, i still don't know how it got so high due to i ritually vac and do water changes, in another thread someone mentioned the waste is in my filter and i need to clean out my sponge, but I'm afraid to because of all the water changes i have done over the last week (7 days) i don't even want to risk disturbing my BB i know the bacteria is in the media not the sponge im just afraid to touch the filter right now, would it be okay to clean my sponge off?

 

[Potluck]

Well it's hard to believe that nitrates of quantities in and around 100ppm are detrimental considering the various studies citing lethal concentrations in the several hundreds. I don't think enough is known. Could be species related, size related etc.

Thing about plants and nitrate is that plants will only take up nitrate as a source of nitrogen if ammonia is scarce. It may not be that nitrates are low in planted tanks because the plants are consuming them but rather that the plants are utilising parts of the ammonia before it becomes nitrates through nitrification. But then again, while it may be a general consensus that plants prefer ammonia over nitrates, there will be species of plants that can utilise them more efficiently if need be.

I think ultimately, if the tank is not balanced and you have rapidly rising/changing parameters there will be other factors suppressing the fish, not just nitrates.

This isn't a post negating the need for water changes. Balance is key and if you have too many fish for your ecosystem something has got to give. Nitrates can be kept under control in many ways. In my opinion, keeping a correctly stocked tank with sensible feeding and live plants, and providing your tap is low in nitrates, they will rarely become a problem.


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My nitrite, ammonia, ph is always the same exact numbers
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Ph 7.4-7.5

I've never tested for nitrates cause my lfs said they aren't harmful, but in fact high nitrates can kill a fish / lower its immune system at least that's what I'm understanding from a lot of people's comments.

 

[PNWaquarist]

Well it's hard to believe that nitrates of quantities in and around 100ppm are detrimental considering the various studies citing lethal concentrations in the several hundreds. I don't think enough is known. Could be species related, size related etc.

If studies have shown nitrate levels in the several hundred ppm range to be lethal, it stands to reason that nitrate levels on the same order of magnitude (e.g., 100 ppm) could result in serious health issues.

IIRC, the EPA limit for nitrate in drinking water is something like 10 ppm. Levels higher than that are considered harmful for infants. Despite the EPA's tendency to over-regulate, I imagine that they have a good reason (i.e., scientific evidence of developmental issues) for setting the limit this low.

If 100 ppm nitrate in drinking water is considered harmful over the long-term for a human baby, it's not difficult to see how a marinating one's fish in 100 ppm nitrate over the entirety of their lives can cause problems. It's true that some species are more sensitive than others. For example, Goldfish and Betas will tolerate a heck of a lot more nitrate with no apparent ill effects than many other species. But species such as GBRs and Discus won't survive in those conditions for very long. There's a reason why Discus owners change out 150 gallons of water every week. And while those Zebra Danios are still alive after two years of living in 100 ppm nitrate, they may not be completely healthy under those conditions and may not live as long as they would've in 20 ppm nitrate.

My feeling is that if your tank's nitrate level is higher than 40 ppm, the conditions that you're providing aren't as healthy as they could be. Obviously, many species are less tolerant of nitrate than that, but I think that 40 ppm or so is a good rule of thumb for most species.

 

[Caliban07]

If studies have shown nitrate levels in the several hundred ppm range to be lethal, it stands to reason that nitrate levels on the same order of magnitude (e.g., 100 ppm) could result in serious health issues.

I take your point but 100ppm and 600ppm are to significantly different numbers where the latter is 6x greater and so 6x more concentrated than the former

IIRC, the EPA limit for nitrate in drinking water is something like 10 ppm. Levels higher than that are considered harmful for infants. Despite the EPA's tendency to over-regulate, I imagine that they have a good reason (i.e., scientific evidence of developmental issues) for setting the limit this low.

If 100 ppm nitrate in drinking water is considered harmful over the long-term for a human baby, it's not difficult to see how a marinating one's fish in 100 ppm nitrate over the entirety of their lives can cause problems. It's true that some species are more sensitive than others. For example, Goldfish and Betas will tolerate a heck of a lot more nitrate with no apparent ill effects than many other species. But species such as GBRs and Discus won't survive in those conditions for very long. There's a reason why Discus owners change out 150 gallons of water every week. And while those Zebra Danios are still alive after two years of living in 100 ppm nitrate, they may not be completely healthy under those conditions and may not live as long as they would've in 20 ppm nitrate.

Comparing fish with humans and infant babies is not the greatest of comparisons. Human testing where nitrate is concerned is far more documented than in fish. I haven't seen any studies that directly link either Rams or discus directly to nitrate susceptibility so I can only accept what is presented to me by keepers.

Studies for the bluegill catfish shown the lethal mean concentration over 4 days to be in the region of 2000ppm nitrate where some inverts and other species are significantly less.


My feeling is that if your tank's nitrate level is higher than 40 ppm, the conditions that you're providing aren't as healthy as they could be. Obviously, many species are less tolerant of nitrate than that, but I think that 40 ppm or so is a good rule of thumb for most species

My point is simply that with the lack of data, species, size, age, temp, salinity having to be considered I wouldn't get in a flap over short term exposure to 100ppm nitrate. As mentioned above, I have no doubt that nitrates are harmful to fish and I agree they should be kept as low as possible to reduce risk but there is always this over sensitivity lurking in the hobby that coincides beautifully with lack of data and manufacturer recommendations. The lower the better for me though.

That is my feeling anyway.

Apologies to op for derailing the thread.

.

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[PNWaquarist]

I take your point but 100ppm and 600ppm are to significantly different numbers where the latter is 6x greater and so 6x more concentrated than the former

If death occurs at 600 ppm, health problems are almost surely to occur at 100 ppm.

My point is simply that with the lack of data, species, size, age, temp, salinity having to be considered I wouldn't get in a flap over short term exposure to 100ppm nitrate. As mentioned above, I have no doubt that nitrates are harmful to fish and I agree they should be kept as low as possible to reduce risk but there is always this over sensitivity lurking in the hobby that coincides beautifully with lack of data and manufacturer recommendations. The lower the better for me though.

That is my feeling anyway.

Yeah, I can agree with that. (Though one of my GBRs did develop lymphocystis after I allowed our house-sitter to feed my fish for a week back in June. I didn't measure the nitrate level in that tank, but would guess it was at least 50 ppm.)