All the shrimp died - again

[Linwood]

I tried again, caught wild ghost shrimp, and over night every one died.

The last time was here:

Old Thread

This time I started with a new clean tank, sterilized with chlorine and rinsed and dried thoroughly. Brand new filter, brand new media, brand new hoses and fittings. Nothing from the old tank.

I cycled it from scratch - no seeded media. It's fully cycled, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites consistently for days, a big water change so nitrates are very low (about 5-10).

The water is a somewhat close match to the lake -- high 7's PH, TDS 270 vs lake 320. Lake not tested but tank is dKH=4 and dGH=7.

NO fertilizers or other additives, water is RODI reconstituted with Equilibrium and Alkaline BUffer, no other additives.

I brought about 30 shrimp home (along with a bunch of minnows) and acclimated them over a 3 hour period with drip-in tank water, until I had 2 x tank to the original 1 x lake water, then netted them and dropped them directly in the tank.

They all looked lively and happy when they got into the tank, and went to doing their normal activities. I put in a handfull of water wisteria so they would have something to hide in if desired.

By evening a few had died -- turned solid white and fell to the bottom.

By this morning every shrimp was dead.

Every minnow is alive and seemingly normal.

The fish are tiny -- there is no predation involved. The shrimp turned white and died.

This is a different freshwater lake than my last try; definitely fresh water not brackish (it's Lakes Park in Ft. Myers if anyone is interested; the prior was Harns Marsh holding pond in Lehigh Acres). Caught in a minnow net and straight into a bucket of their own lake water.

What the heck am I doing wrong?

 

[treemanone2003]

My first and best guess is the tank is not mature enough. In other words not 6 months (or longer) running. Anything I've ever read is they require an "established" system, often defined as running for 6 months or longer. There's a few properties that build up in the tank over time that are vital for their stability.


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[Linwood]

There's a few properties that build up in the tank over time that are vital for their stability.

That could be true... but what?

And remember -- this isn't a long term health thing, they died in about 12-16 hours. ALL of them.

 

[Brookster123]

Maybe they're just that delicate?

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[Linwood]

Maybe they're just that delicate?

Possibly. Though they (same species? Not sure) are widely used for feeder shrimp, and shipped and sold with minimal care and only partial mortality.

Maybe the varieties here are just very fragile.

Or maybe there really is some magic ingredient in the lake water I lack. I don't think it is the reverse (something in my water killing them) since i'm starting with RODI and adding very little.

Ironically I actually wanted wild caught because I thought they may be more robust than inbreed, LFS feeder stock.

 

[treemanone2003]

That could be true... but what?



And remember -- this isn't a long term health thing, they died in about 12-16 hours. ALL of them.

While I can't accurately answer that, I don't want to supply bad info so hopefully one of the shrimpers can chime in.

Possibly. Though they (same species? Not sure) are widely used for feeder shrimp, and shipped and sold with minimal care and only partial mortality.



Maybe the varieties here are just very fragile.



Or maybe there really is some magic ingredient in the lake water I lack. I don't think it is the reverse (something in my water killing them) since i'm starting with RODI and adding very little.



Ironically I actually wanted wild caught because I thought they may be more robust than inbreed, LFS feeder stock.

As before, I don't want to give bad info but the RODI may be the culprit as there's no minerals to start with. Once the tank is established, RODI should be fine.


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[Coursair]

If there was even the tiniest trace of the chlorine, it would kill the shrimp first.

Copper also kills shrimp, but no idea if you have any copper in your tank ?

Can you set up a clean bucket with an air stone and just try bringing them in in the lake water and just keep them in the lake water and see if they survive ? With plenty of floating plants for security.

That is frustrating ?

Some new plants may have toxins on them, soak them before adding to a Shrimp tank.

http://www.petshrimp.com/articles/whyshrimpdead.php


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[Linwood]

There was no chlorine. Besides a thorough rinse and sun dry before filling, I spent 40 days cycling. No chlorine.

No copper. It's a glass aquarium, well scrubbed, commercially made. No decorations or substrate, just new PVC intake and output.

After the last time when I had some unknowns, I really tried to minimize all issues. Even the filter media was brand new (Seachem Matrix, and regular floss/sponge).

I did not add any lake plants, only some trimmings of water wisteria from another tank (and one which had shrimp living in it -- well, until the congo tetras decided to invite them to lunch).

I could certainly keep some for a while in lake water with an airstone or similar, though ultimately I need to transition them.

The Seachem Alkaline Buffer is basically baking soda so I do not think there's an issue there.

The Seachem Equilibrium is pretty widely used in planted tanks including with shrimp (including my other tanks where I've kept shrimp before).

Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, I really am looking for help. But I did do a lot of reading on shrimp last time, and tried to make sure all the easy issues were addressed. I'm still obviously missing something, but I don't think it is something like chlorine.

 

[Coursair]

There was no chlorine. Besides a thorough rinse and sun dry before filling, I spent 40 days cycling. No chlorine.



No copper. It's a glass aquarium, well scrubbed, commercially made. No decorations or substrate, just new PVC intake and output.



After the last time when I had some unknowns, I really tried to minimize all issues. Even the filter media was brand new (Seachem Matrix, and regular floss/sponge).



I did not add any lake plants, only some trimmings of water wisteria from another tank (and one which had shrimp living in it -- well, until the congo tetras decided to invite them to lunch).



I could certainly keep some for a while in lake water with an airstone or similar, though ultimately I need to transition them.



The Seachem Alkaline Buffer is basically baking soda so I do not think there's an issue there.



The Seachem Equilibrium is pretty widely used in planted tanks including with shrimp (including my other tanks where I've kept shrimp before).



Sorry, not trying to be argumentative, I really am looking for help. But I did do a lot of reading on shrimp last time, and tried to make sure all the easy issues were addressed. I'm still obviously missing something, but I don't think it is something like chlorine.

I agree, it certainly sounds like you've done everything correct.

I was just trying to throw those out there to see if anything might of been missed.

If you can get them living in the straight lakewater, then I would divide the group and put some in the straight lake water and some in lake water that you start very gradually dripping in your tank water.

So you have a control group and an experimental group.


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[Linwood]

I agree, it certainly sounds like you've done everything correct.

I was just trying to throw those out there to see if anything might of been missed.

If you can get them living in the straight lakewater, then I would divide the group and put some in the straight lake water and some in lake water that you start very gradually dripping in your tank water.

So you have a control group and an experimental group.

That's a good idea, I'm just not set up for it now. I think I want the minnows to mature and see what I caught there, so they are in the QT, and I don't have another tank suitable to run lakewater. I'm also not sure I could do water changes in a 30G (if I used that) and haul lake water back and forth -- well, I could, not sure I want to.

But maybe later. Still hoping someone has an idea of what I might have done wrong.

 

[Coursair]

I was just thinking two 3-5g buckets for trying out Shrimp trials.
?

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[Linwood]

I was just thinking two 3-5g buckets for trying out Shrimp trials.

Hmmm... maybe if I buy some air drive sponge filters. I don't have an extra canister, but I guess I could rig something up.

Now the issue of 5 G buckets sitting around and my wife and winter in florida (i.e. house guests)... don't suppose you have any good ideas there.

 

[Nils]

Actually I have no idea what you're doing wrong. My guess is that you need to let the tank sit longer, use the minnow as the ammonia source for the BB, and just wait and have patience. If it were me, I'd fill the tank with water from the lake and skip acclimating unless the temperature changes. Then you don't have to go through the cycling process and it isn't big stress on the critters.

Nils

 

[Linwood]

Well, a couple more data points. I was talking to the owner of a LFS locally, that does a lot of freshwater work. I asked if he had tried catching local ghost shrimp. He immediately said "yes, several times, and they all die". He had collected in one spot that overlapped mine, and a couple others, and said each time within a week every one died.

The ones here must have some serious aversion to captivity.

 

[Gillie]

It's strange that they all die, have you tested a sample of water from the collection site and compared it to the water you are trying to keep them in?

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[Linwood]

It's strange that they all die, have you tested a sample of water from the collection site and compared it to the water you are trying to keep them in?

Yes. I was very close on ph and dKH, though the lake was about 11 gGH and I was at 7 or 8. Doesn't seem like a killer difference.