Treating infections in shrimp

[libertybelle]

I’ll move the biomedia /plants that I care about to the 10 too so I can do a harsher cleaning. Some are glued in place to driftwood so I’ll probably just bleach dip them. If they survive great if not fine. I just pruned a whole grocery bag full of plants from my 29 so no big deal.

Then to make cleaning easy I’ll probably just dose some bleach through the whole 6 gallon tank while it’s running empty. I also want to kill off the mini ramshorns in there, I don’t want them serving as a carrier.

Rinse and run with just plants for a while until I Re-cycle and decide what to do. Actually I can just add biomedia from my 29. No problems in there. Most likely I’ll start fresh and order new shrimp from somewhere and keep them entirely separate from my 10 gallon while I continue treating and hoping for the best in there. Maybe try to different type of shrimp...

This has been a thoroughly discouraging process and in some ways it’s even worse than than if something wiped out the whole colony. At least when that happens you just start over and call it a bad day. This slow and steady loss has led to me spending months trying to figure out what is going on treating and retreating on and on and on.

Bleh. I wonder what I should do in the 6 once it’s clean. Thoughts? Cheer me up with future plans/ ideas!!

 

[Autumnsky]

New, fresh shrimp tank. Maybe try a vendor like Flip Aquatics which QT shrimp for 30 days and hope there is wellness.

They also say they will help figure out if something goes wrong.

How about Blue Bolts? Really pretty. Or Tangerine Tigers are known as vigorous shrimp, and pretty.

Saw they obviously have the dates wrong on their page, lol. This you get some shrimp and leaves, food and a net.

https://flipaquatics.com/products/tiger-shrimp-starter-pack?variant=51436184452


This is the seller / link at the bottom, I got the PRL from - Red Pinto Mix looks really nice.

With auctions, you never know if it will be a good deal or not. Be prepared to know how much to pay and do not pay too much. (Shadow Mosura is really great - just a mention of appreciation for their beauty)

Also they are on FB and maybe sell else where.

Some auctions have a reserve and I always check to see what the other prices they sell the same grade and amount. It gives you a chance to see what the best deal might be.

My PRL I only wanted to spend about $5.00 each. For nice but not super quality (I required a good white shell that was the big thing for me - red amount didn't matter).

I guestimated on the reserve, and went slightly over because these shrimp were really great. [Saw he was selling elsewhere for $10 per shrimp but on another site he started the auction at $30 for slight lesser quality SS instead of SSS] And there was 15.00 shipping.

Also I figure if you pay the bare minimum you might get the lower end of the scale of the quality they are selling. Hoping that helps if you go the auction route

https://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?disp&viewseller&Ngshrimps

NG Shrimps on fb - aka Next Generation Shrimp.


Or a pair of Killifish. And breed them. There are some amazing looking Killis!

 

[libertybelle]

Thank you for the suggestions I’ll look into them after bedtime!

Quick update in the meantime:

The Bad news: I mentioned that I apparently started losing the zebras while I was out of town, after they seemed mostly unaffected... we’ll after moving shrimp back from the 6 into the 10 I discovered that I had apparently lost all but one of the zebras during that time out of town. I’ve moved the remaining shrimp to the 10 to be treated with the others and it’s sitting with just snails while I watch for a couple days to try and spot and catch all the little guys before cleaning it.

The Good news: haven’t had another death in the 10 since I resumed antibiotics, as far as I can tell. Shrimp are pretty good about ‘cleaning up’ but I’ve been checking as frequently as I can and haven’t seen any losses. I’m still treating daily with antibiotics and paraguard. I want to make sure the stragglers get the full course of antibiotics before I stop treating. Perhaps this antibiotic is effective but it just needed a longer course.

I can definitely say that maracyn II and paraguard are perfectly fine to dose together even for longer time courses without any detrimental effects to the shrimp.

 

[Autumnsky]

Just saw this 100% disease free guarantee on shrimp
Aquatic arts shrimp, link didn't work but you can look it up.

Sorry to hear most the other shrimp didn't make it.

 

[libertybelle]

That’s actually where I got my most recent batch from and I definitely never saw scutariella in my tank before I brought in this group. (Which honestly isn’t a huge deal; that’s pretty benign ) Tracing the bacterial infection is more difficult because it’s possible it was in my tank before, the very slow/steady death rate makes it hard to pinpoint. I have some suspicions than maybe it was around from those ghost shrimp I added earlier. But I didn’t start seeing regular weekly die off until adding these new shrimp so it’s still unclear.

Not trying to bad mouth aquatic arts here, i consider this on me because they appeared disease free and healthy on arrival and I should have quarantined to be sure. Frankly before this I just didn’t know much about freshwater shrimp diseases and mistakenly assumed they were rare just because I had never seen them. The death rate is so low from this slow bacterial problem that even if it did come from them it’s hard to blame them for not noticing it. It took me what, two months to actually come around to the idea that it wasn’t something like water change issue, molting issue etc and of it weren’t for the obvious improvement now that I’m dosing antibiotics I still might not be completely confident it’s a bacterial problem.

Regardless I did decide to shoot them an email on the subject. I don’t really expect after almost three months that they’ll do anything about it but I figured it doesn’t hurt to see what they say. If nothing else maybe it will clue them in that their tanks are in need of some paraguard which may help future purchasers, and maybe they’ll give me some kind of discount for a future purchase which I will quarantine . Lol definitely learned my lesson there!

 

[Autumnsky]

Okay. Hope they have some helpful information.

 

[libertybelle]

Well not information. They thanked me for letting them know and said they would look out for any such symptoms in their tanks. But here’s a pleasant surprise, they offered to re-ship me what I ordered from them last time free of charge. It’s the same source but it’s been months so since many of their shrimp are imports and quarantined it’s possible I may still get a ‘clean’ group.

So after I clean and restart the six I guess I’m going to have a new group of zebras and painted fire reds to try in there.

Fingers crossed that this group does better!

The 10 has been doing much better. I stopped antibiotics yesterday after nearly two weeks of them. In that time period I’ve only lost one shrimp which is way down. As soon as a have a few minutes I’ll water change and gravel vac and hope that maybe this time I took out the bug!

 

[Autumnsky]

That is very kind of them. And even a bit surprising.

 

[libertybelle]

It was. I didn’t even ask for anything I just figured I should let them know and maybe they would have a clue about treatment if they ever had seen it in their tanks. Frankly I expected some nominal discount off a future order or something considering they have no way of knowing for sure if it was their shrimp that were ill. Even I’m not 100% where it came from. I mean based on timing I know the scuts came from them but they’re not a big deal. And looking back at the timeline of my posts the slow but steady cherry deaths started around that time so I am pretty sure. I was having issues with some ghost shrimp for a while but they were in a different tank at the time so...

But anyway they have no way of knowing for sure and they still stood behind that guarantee like three months later. That’s pretty impressive.

 

[libertybelle]

I have got to stop telling you guys things are improving every time I do things take a downturn. I’ve lost one shrimp a day since i told you things had been going better. They started dying the day I stoped antibiotics so maybe that’s a factor.

I think I’m going to clean both tanks out. I won’t cull all the shrimp since they’re still out breeding the losses, but I’m going to clean out the 6 first start fresh and then move all the critters back over (I’ve a ton of extra biomedia in my 29 for near instant cycle. Then clean the 10 entirely too. New shrimp will go in the 10. when they come. Since hopefully the new ones won’t be ill the healthy shrimp will have more space and the ones in the 6 with have a clean tank. I’ve read many people say replacing substrate and lots of cleaning can help since it physically removes some of the bad bacteria that can build up in the sand bed etc.

Maybe that’s why the ones in the 6 initially did well then things started going downhill.

Another day another theory.

 

[Autumnsky]

I have got to stop telling you guys things are improving
Another day another theory.

Well fish poop.

Sounds like a good plan. Clean it all out. Try again.

 

[libertybelle]

Yup; since I’m not culling all the shrimp I’ll likely continue to have problems in the six but I think I’m just gunna let it play out and just be extremely careful to not cross contaminate the tank that houses the new (hopefully clean!) shrimp.

When I start fresh and move the shrimp over I think I will do one more round of antibiotics on the existing colony in the hope that physical removal got rid of most everything and the meds can take out the rest. The mortality rate keeps dropping whenever I’m treating with antibiotics so it has got to be a bacterial problem.

I have to decide what to do with the pygmy Cories and nerites who are currently rooming with the cherry shrimp. I really don’t want the pygmys in anything smaller than the ten, but I don’t want them to be a carrier for something when I start the 10 fresh.

I guess if I return them to the 10 I am counting on the fact that fish and inverts don’t carry the same illnesses so if I acclimate them to fresh treated tap water then net them back into the tank after cleaning the risk should be minimal. I think that’s a risk I’m going to have to tank. I am 100% out of room for new tanks and they can’t go in the 29 because the semi-aggressive glofish chase them relentlessly. And the six has nowhere near enough surface area for them.

Edit:Nah; the more I think about it the more that sounds like a bad idea.

I want to know for SURE the new shrimp are in a clean environment. For them to have the best chance and so I know for sure that if they do start showing any symptoms again that they didn’t get it from my tank. I even ordered some stability... so I may not even cycle with media from my 29. I just want a completely new start in the 6 so I know for sure.

 

[Delapool]

Worth a try - gee, thought the infection might have burnt itself out by now

 

[libertybelle]

I hoped so but I in retrospect I can see that most of the times I thought it was over and didn’t have deaths for a while was when I was actively treating with antibiotics. So I do think they’re helping but it’s like it can’t get it all (perhaps because it’s an internal infection there’s a protected reservoir the meds can’t efficiently treat) so after dosing stops the deaths resume.

I’m bleaching the six gallon today. I chucked any plants that I have tons of in the 29 already and bleach dipped the ones I want to try and keep and moved them to the 29. I’ll bleach dip any plants I want to move back into the six too when I reset it up. It’s now going to be my ‘clean’ tank. No tubing nets or plants that haven’t been bleached. The plants may or may not survive the bleach but it’s better than spreading a possible infection back. The plants all look good so far from bleaching last night even the crypts and mosses so they may survive though of course I suspect the crypts will eventually melt back and I’d be shocked if the mosses survive for more than a few days.

I have some plants glued to driftwood and I’m hesitant to bleach the driftwood itself because it’s porous. I think I’ll take the wood out and do a hydrogen peroxide dip for the wood/ anubius glued to the wood. Then I’m going to do an in tank bleaching. I’ll mix up the sand and remove as much debris as I can refill with 10% bleach and let it run for a while mixing up the sand from time to time so everything is contacted. Lol, I mean business now! I’ll recycle with stability / fish food instead of using media from my 29 just in case.

 

[libertybelle]

I have to say I am disappointed. When I started this thread obviously I was hoping that I’d be able to report a successful method for dealing that other people could try.

Instead this thread reads like ‘abandon hope all ye who enter’

 

[Fishlegend]

Congratulations

This has become a popular thread. Many people envy getting that many post on a thread started with a problem many threads only have <10 that have similar topics.

 

[Autumnsky]

Libertybelle makes fish illness and learning interesting and so many people have had the same experience, in shrimp keeping. The details really help in case you have the process to go through yourself!

Spent some time reading articles, all because of your problem here libertybelle, and found a couple things.

UV is one which I am interested in. The UV machines on the market with lower cost do not have great efficacy in how most people use them in large tanks, as noted not strong enough. But in treating small tanks, maybe units would be adequate for a shrimp tank.

Also building the immune system with foods and supplements to consume and in the water (botanicals).

Substrate is also a suspect in many cases, too much build up. Being a recovering over-feeder, I can attest to the unbelievable amount of stuff even caught up in sand!!! In just a few months.

For the life of me, I can not find my thin Fluval Edge vacuum, so I plan to buy another one this week. And actually using it much more!!!

 

[Delapool]

I have to say I am disappointed. When I started this thread obviously I was hoping that I’d be able to report a successful method for dealing that other people could try.



Instead this thread reads like ‘abandon hope all ye who enter’

frustrating for sure.

 

[libertybelle]

Fishlegend - We’re working together to try to solve a problem that not only I have but many shrimp keepers have or have had before. It’s popular because it’s an issue that has no obvious solution and it’s cost many of us time money and so much frustration. Even which medications are safe to try and at what dosages are nebulous in the invert world. By documenting that all here people will come across it when they have this issue in the future. This is how we all grow as critter keepers!

Spent some time reading articles, all because of your problem here libertybelle, and found a couple things.

UV is one which I am interested in. The UV machines on the market with lower cost do not have great efficacy in how most people use them in large tanks, as noted not strong enough. But in treating small tanks, maybe units would be adequate for a shrimp tank.

Also building the immune system with foods and supplements to consume and in the water (botanicals).

Substrate is also a suspect in many cases, too much build up. Being a recovering over-feeder, I can attest to the unbelievable amount of stuff even caught up in sand!!! In just a few months.

UV is an interesting idea. I do wonder if it might be more use earlier in this process because it could prevent the spread from shrimp to shrimp? At this point I feel like the bulk of my shrimp are likely infected already and cleansing the water column may not help as much as if someone got a UV sterilizer when they first got shrimp perhaps. Note to hypothetical future readers, this one is on you to test!) I guess I could put one on the newly sterilized 6g but I would only know if it didn’t work. If it works it could be the UV saved the day, or it could be the shrimp were clean. That said... I’ve seen a really dramatic improvement while dosing maracyn2 which likely acts primarily externally. Perhaps UV would emulate that effect without knocking out BB or needing daily dosing. Might be worth a try. Any recommendations in the lower price range?

I started feeding ‘shrimp fit’ in the midst of this. I might order some IAL and alder cones as well for their mild antibacterial properties. I suspect many of those things likewise are probably better preventatives than cures.

The substrate is something I want to get at more. It’s a very thin layer of sand in my tank, just enough for coverage since my plants are very low needs but could certainly be a reservoir for pathogens. My tank is such a jungle and I’m not super familiar with cleaning sand so that combined with being afraid to suck up babies... perhaps it’s not as clean as I think. I came very close to sterilizing both tanks and playing musical critters while doing so but the idea of the amount of stress to the inhabitants convinced me otherwise. I will however start being a little more thorough in my cleaning. I doubt I’m going to do more damage with a little over cleaning then the infection is doing. They’re still outbreeding the losses though. I’ve got at least 3-4 more berried ones in there now and a bunch of newborns.

I mentioned in another thread I’m considering moving my assassin snail into the 10 again since in this case, a predatory taking out the weak / dying shrimp before the others get to it might be a benefit to the colony.

Edit: so I straight up forgot my reservations about bleaching wood and did it without thinking then moved it to the 29 (after soaking in lots of safe and. with a full dose of prime in the tank in case) other than this piece being a shade lighter than the other driftwood in that tank, no issues. I swapped it with a (yes, sterilized, piece of hard scape and replanted the thing with just a couple things to get it started tonight. So far the plants are holding up well to the rough treatment. Tragically my mini ramshorns didn’t make it. I may cry.

 

[Autumnsky]

Those are tears of happiness?

I have not used a UV sterilizer. Long ago I had one (came in a box of stuff from a hobbyist get rid of excess items) the bulb was not functioning and at the cost of purchasing a new bulb just to find out and not needing it likely went to the trash.

There has been a previous consideration about using one, a bigger one for the bigger tank.

My thoughts on why I didn't want to buy an expensive one. They kill bacteria, good bacteria and bad bacteria. And they kill algae cells with is mostly the good part.

But for my large tank, I wondered what damage it would do the the "natural" bacterial eco system. I read of many people using them on large tanks especially in commercial settings and they are fine / anyway the tanks look fine.

It isn't like all the bacteria on substrate and on DW, glass and plants are nuked.

Many people buy the cheaper options because not wanting to spend so much cash on algae killing. If it goes away then they sell unit because they don't need it anymore, maybe secondary market is worth a check.

The one I see most often is Green Killing machine. There are reef types too, but reef stuff is usually 3 times as expensive.

Anyway I probably need to know more about all this because I had a dead shrimp today. Looked perfect in an ideal parameter tank but dead :/

Additionally there is a treatment using hydrogen peroxide, I didn't understand it or really like the idea - basis was treating the tank with a specific amount for a certain number of days.