I have some frogs from sabino canyon...now what?

[alia258]

I ran a quick google search on keeping them, but all I can get is a map to Sabino canyon and some endangered road (which isn't what I have) I caught them in a stagnant pond on a wall, the wall was white and they WERE white but turned darker because the gravel they're on is black (I knew frogs did this) I know a little about amphibians, they require water and land and they use the sun for heat during the day. I know they feed on bugs like crickets and stuff, and they like humidity. I got three adult frogs and three tadpoles, one has baby frog legs, one is a little younger, then there's a tiny baby one. So firstly, if anyone can direct me to a link or google search that has info on how to care for them, please do tell me! And I have a few quick questions which I need to know because it's important to their health:
1. I there a supplement food pellet that the frogs can eat instead of crickets? (I'd like to have the crickets be more of a once a month thing) I know aquatic frogs do, but these guys are semi-aquatic.
2. Will the adults adjust quickly, or will it take some time?
3. Can you guys give me a guess on the tadpoles ages?
4. Any idea what species of frog I have?

Here are some pics of the tank, I think I set it up right:




























They're set up in a 10g with fluorescent lights and there's a bubbler because I'm pretty sure tadpoles have gills (but I forget) so can someone clear that up for me?

My guppies in a seperate tank keep having babies, will the frogs eat them if I put some of the fry in their cage? (I do want them to be eaten, the other babies are being fed to my friends turtles)

Another question, is it possible for frogs to coexist with crabs? I'm not sure how docile they are, but they are neat looking. I'm talking about either the actual crabs or the hermit crabs.

EDIT: I think they might be canyon tree frogs, and the adults have an unnatural parasite on them that are orange and resemble seed beads, although slightly smaller than that. A quick google said that manual removal and some kind of mite medication can get rid of these, any ideas on what that actual med might be? The tadpoles appear to be unaffected by the mite breakout.

 

[alia258]

They've been hanging out on the wall, and I just changed out the water, but it's already foggy. They were living in some brown water, but i'd like it to be clear. I put some anacharis in there to float and help keep the water oxygenated, and there is a small bubbler. The adults won't accept food, but the tadpoles are eating the freeze dried blood worms that I offered them. I'm hoping that they'll accept food eventually, and I'm sure that the tadpoles will adjust, but I'm not so sure about the adults now. Any help guys? Would they eat frozen blood worms? Can I just go outside and pick up some bugs for them? Will they eat rolie polies? (we have lots of those in our backyard)

Quick tank info:
10g w/ fluorescent lights and full hood
Small bubbler for surface agitation
Dechlorinator doubles as a fertilizer for plants
Many anacharis plants in the water

here's some pics of them and the tank:

 

[Wy Renegade]

Tadpoles do have gills. I'm afraid I know nothing about your particular frog species, so can't help much. Have you tried looking up the feeding habits of the type of frog you think these are? I would suggest something besides roly polies. Adults and tadpoles typically consume different food sources, so no surprise that the adults won't eat the same food as the tadpoles. How about fruit flies? You got any over ripe bananas around that have attracted fruit flies?

You might consider some driftwood that comes out of the water and/or land area to provide the adult frogs something to climb on besides the glass/tank. It is important that you find the adults something to eat, otherwise their adjustment will be to start eating each other or the tadpoles.

I would suggest a filter of some sort besides the bubbler (sorry if you already have one, but you didn't indicate that in the thread).

 

[alia258]

I don't have a filter that would really work with the low water level, I do have an old aquarium filter, but that's all, and then I have some charcoal filled things that don't work. I can use some old decor in the tank, but I'm not sure I can find appropriate wood. My dad has a pile of pinewood in the back, and there's some thinner logs I could probly use, will that be safe if I keep the wood above water? (I heard that pine leeches sap into the water) and one more thing, is it possible to switch the frogs or the tadpoles over to a pellet food or frozen blood worms? And I've seen some pretty green frogs at the lfs, is it possible for them to coexist? And the three frogs have a parasite that I think are mites, all three have it in varying degrees, and I don't really know how to fix that, but here's what it looks like:












(for the first pic, I happened to be holding the frog when I saw the red things. That one is just a bit more docile. I think I have 1 male and 2 females, assuming the females are larger)

 

[Rach88]

Not sure if you've perhaps already found this site but if not you might find it useful, I used it a few years ago for a reference at college
http://www.reptilesofaz.org/Turtle-Amphibs-Subpages/h-h-arenicolor.html

 

[absolutangel04]

I don't know too much about this species off the top of my head, but I will try to look into it a bit more for you.
Some wild caught amphibs will adapt to frozen foods, some will not. In the meantime, have you tried buying crickets? As for bugs in your yard, yes that is fine. I doubt they will eat the rolley polies because those bugs don't move enough to incite a feeding response. Also, they are not a very nutritious bug. In general, it's not recommended to feed bugs from your yard because of fertilizers and pesticides. Personally, I have done it with wild caught critters and never had a problem. That said, if you do choose to do it, know that there is a risk and make sure the bugs come from a place without pesticides or harmful fertilizers.
No, it is highly unlikely that they will be able to live with the green tree frogs from the pet store. Even if they were compatible, your tank is too small to support that many frogs. I am not sure if your tank is even big enough for the frogs you already have, but I will try to look into that a bit more.
A filter would be very helpful. Amphibs are very sensitive to water quality issues.
I also suggest adding some sort of log or something so the frogs can hide if they would like to. That would decrease stress.

 

[Wy Renegade]

Ok, I looked into the canyon tree frogs a bit, according to what I find they hang out on rocks and in crevices rather than in trees. So rather than adding wood for them to climb, I would build some ledges and caves out of rock (slate or flatstone works well, but other rock will as well).

You have too many frogs and tadpoles currently in that size tank without some type of filtration. I suggest you look into the ZooMed canister filters. A small one (large enough for this tank) will run you around $30.00, and will pull the water out (even with your lowered water level) filter and return it. These canisters are designed for turtles and turtles tanks, and will work very well in this application.

According to what I found, these guys (if your ID is correct) feed on beetles, caddisflies, and any true bugs. So either get some crickets or go scrounging in the yard for some bugs to put in there (FYI; true bugs are a scientific order; hemiptera - things like aphids, water striders, boxelder bugs etc., so not "eeehhh bugs!").

As far as the mites, I would suggest you do some research either on this site; http://www.caudata.org/ or the other popular tree frog site (sorry, not familiar with it) and see if they can help you out as well.

I personal never mix native with nonnative species, the mites and fungal disease these guys are reported to carry may not bother them much, but could be deadly to any other species you introduce.

 

[alia258]

Okay so I added some logs and such, and I found this filter that actually goes into the water, although I'm not sure if the water is deep enough. They're at petco/petsmart according to the Internet, but I need to check on why the smallest size is for them. It could work nicely

I won't be able to go to the store until tomorrow, and do the adults aren't going to be fed for another day unless I happen to find some bugs in the yard. Pesticides aren't used in my yard, so that's not going to be an issue. I'm sure this evening I can catch a cricket or two, or maybe a moth? I have zero fear of bugs so I'll pick up most anything except for spiders (lots of poisonous spiders out here) and my guppy is due to have babies today or tomorrow, will the frogs eat the fry if I put them in the water? I'll run outside to see if I can catch any bugs, but crickets don't come out until the evening and I'm not sure what else I'll find.

As for the rock decor, I am unsure on how I might do that, I do have river rocks in the yard I could probly use. I'll see about it.

Here's a link to the filter I'm talking about, any opinions on it? http://www.petco.com/product/12460/Tetra-Whisper-Internal-Power-Filters.aspx

 

[Wy Renegade]

Sounds like you're on the right track. The filters that sit in the water don't work the best, I ran one on my bog aquarium for several years. They plug up pretty frequently and don't do a great job of filtering IMO. Petco also carries the ZooMed (at least the one in this area does), so I would suggest looking into it as well.

With the river rock you can easily build a nice stack in the corner up and out of the gravel that will contain ledges and crevices naturally. Start your first layer out 2/3rds buried in the gravel and build up from there (just wash the rocks off well with hot water before placing them in the tank - don't worry about boiling them). Once you got something in place, you can experiment with building something more solid using the rock and 3M pond foam if you're interested.

 

[alia258]

There was also another filter system that was in the tank, I'm not sure of it work in shallow water though. The tank is filled about halfway, so about 5 gallon minus the gravel, and so I'm thinking that getting a filter that works on a 5-10 gallon shoul work. That's like the smallest size I ever see, it always says works on 5-10 gallon tanks.

 

[Wy Renegade]

There was also another filter system that was in the tank, I'm not sure of it work in shallow water though. The tank is filled about halfway, so about 5 gallon minus the gravel, and so I'm thinking that getting a filter that works on a 5-10 gallon shoul work. That's like the smallest size I ever see, it always says works on 5-10 gallon tanks.

Most likely its a whisper filter, if memory serves, they claim that they will run in as little as one inch of water. Which it comes pretty close to doing. While it will initially be cheaper than the ZooMed, by the time you keep buying and replacing the cartridges, in the long run it won't be. If you look at replacing the filter with some other things however, it may work. The pump is small, so you inclusion of aquatic plants in the tank will likely frequently plug up the pump and you will be pulling the filter a lot to clean the pump as its set inside the bottom of the filter. There was a link on here a while back about filling a HOB filter with moss and other pond plants rather than filter media, and that might be worth looking into for your application if you don't want to go with the canister.

 

[alia258]

A HOB tank seems like it might work, but id rather an actual filter. Can you send me a link to the canister filter you were talking about? The land in my land area is under the hole meant for the filter (which I used tape and note cards to cover) and the water is far to the side of it. It woul probly be more trouble than it's worth to have the filter above the gravel and the water be to the side of it, unless the intake tube could bend somehow and the water that falls out could be somehow directed to the water area.

For the in water filter, what about covering the bottom with something like pantyhose? Maybe that could help?

The tadpoles have been eating the FDBWs I've been offering them, and I've been giving them a continuous supply, but is is possible I feed them fish granules or goldfish flakes? To add a bit of variety?

I've finished landscaping the tank too. Any opinions on that?

 

[Wy Renegade]

I don't know that a HOB would work that well in your application, I was thinking more about putting plants in the intank filter similar to what was done with the HOB. Here's a link to a review of the canister filter it was talking about; Zoo Med 501 Turtle Filter review | Pet Turtles And More

You also might want to check out the following link if you haven't already; http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f72/wy-renegades-tiger-salamander-paludarium-192117.html While my paludarium was originally intended for tiger salamanders, it is currently serving as a home for a western chorus frog.

The scaping looks good, and it appears that the frogs are already taking advantage of it.

 

[alia258]

I do like the idea of the zoo med filter, I need to check up on how easy it is to clean and how exactly it hangs on my tank, as you saw in previous pics of the tank I have the area where the old filter for my previous fish is covered with notecards and it's above the gravel which may cause a problem or two, or maybe not, depending on the make of the filter. I'll google it and put it in an edit of this post (unless you reply before I finish) so I'll be right back

EDIT: I cannot find much on the way I sits on the aquarium, but the tubing way it appears to use looks like it will fit in my tank nicely, and it has that waterfall thing on it, but can you turn it on and off or is it left on all the time?

I've put more FDBWs in the water for the tadpoles and i put two different kinds of goldfish flakes along with it, hoping that they might like the food, or at least eat it. The adult frogs have been relaxed too. You know the adults were singing songs last night? They sound so odd they all seem kinda lazy, just hangin out lounging in the light like that. I was thinking of adding a few plants because the lid doesn't allow much air exchange. The glass was foggy this morning, but it's cleared up right now. Is there any way to help keep the glass UN-foggy, or am I kinda stuck with it as long as I keep the lights on? I'll be adding three newborn-an-hour-ago guppy fry to the tank to see if any of the tadpoles/frogs eat them. The water is getting foggy again, I think I might change it out again before I go to bed, any opinions on that matter?

 

[Wy Renegade]

The ZooMed is a nice filter, like all canisters, it is on all the time. It doesn't hang on the tank at all, it uses the tubing to draw water up and out and then return it to the tank. I don't think a preexisting hole should cause any problems, although you might be able to incorporate the hole into the filter system if you desire. to shut it off and clean it, you simply unplug it. The top comes off and you remove the media to clean.

Based on the description of the adult frogs feeding habits in the wild, I find it very unlikely that they will eat the fry. I would assume (as AT suggested) that they are going to need living terrestrial food in order to stimulate a feeding response. Its good that they are enjoying their new habitat enough to sing . You could adjust the lid to get rid of excess condensation by putting a smaller glass on and covering about a 2" open strip with screen. You could then add a fan to blow across the opening. This would allow the hot air to rise and escape and thus prevent the accumulation of condensation on the glass. Without a filter system, I would say that daily water changes are a good idea.

 

[alia258]

Okay well I'll hopefully get the filter today, and if not then daily water changes until I do get one. The frogs were singing more last night then the night before, and the Internet says its mating season so I might find some tadpole eggs in the water

 

[alia258]

Tomorrow I'll be getting frozen blood worms and crickets. I caught three crickets, and made sure each frog got one today, which has been their first meal in 3 days. If I am to have a regular feeding schedule with them, how often and how much should I feed them?

I planted some clover from out backyard in the tank and I'm hoping that the fertilizers in the dechlorinator will make them grow nicely. I also adjusted the rocks and stick in the tank. I might add a young melon sword into the water half o the tank. I've also been handling the frogs a bit, about once a day, and they've become much more used to being held and don't worry, I've washed my hands before and after, and I also found out that they secrete an irritant which can bother eyes and cuts but is not anything serious or venomous. I put the old little heater in the water in hopes it might make things warmer for them and because the fluorescents only give off a little light, they've been hopping into the plastic covers to absorb what little heat comes from them so the heater should keep it a little warmer for them. The heater is a non-adjustable 78°F tropical heater, and since I found them in warmer water I suppose they'll like it

The frogs have started croaking during the day now, and singing songs at night, and I've definitely confirmed their species because their croak is so distinctive. It sounds almost like a clanging tin can, it is an odd thing, you guys should check it out on YouTube or something, canyon tree frog call, or something like that

As for the tadpoles, the oldest is beginning to use its legs to swim but there's still no arms showing. The younger two have little stubs of feet beginning to grow. I've been feeding them a mixture of goldfish flakes, tropical granules, and FDBWs twice a day. They have accepted all three foods, and if I raise them correctly I might be able to raise them to eat both crickets and non-live foods. They are strange looking, especially the one with legs XD

I was considering putting two or three of these baby inch long guppies I have into the little area with the tadpoles once I get a filter in there, any opinions on that?

Here are a few pics of the tank:

 

[alia258]

The tadpole crawled out and is just kinda sitting there...what should I expect it to do and what can I feed it?

 

[Wy Renegade]

Any updates on progress with this little project?