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Old 06-26-2015, 08:49 PM   #21
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More reading on SPS corals is needed by some people. There are more and more Reefers going back to Halides, because of color for one, and growth for 2. They've been using LEDs for a couple of years, and have noted that their corals do not grow nor look as good as they were under Halides. And I'm afraid, they are not stupid for wanting to go back.
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:05 PM   #22
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That said, to replicate the sun isn't what we are trying to do here. We are trying to put enough usable light over these corals so they grow while making them look good to our standards....it's definitely not duplicating the sun. I guarantee you these corals look much better in our tanks than they do in the ocean.
THE RIGHT leds are light years more efficient than metal halides, and this is why they are so popular. There is no downside to them.

lol How can you say our lights are not trying to replicate the sun? Okay.....

Actually if you do fluorescent night dives and use yellow filtering you are able to see the corals much better..

There's down sides to LED just like there's downsides to metal halides. I don't think you can't blanket say there is no downside. And that's not even taking into many different types of LEDs available. It's still clear you do not know what you're talking about
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Old 06-26-2015, 09:15 PM   #23
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There are many threads with "old schoolers" wanting their VHO's back(seriously!)
I am not a lighting guru(but I know at least 1,umm)
and BELIEVE the largest down side to MH are all human issues like heat,electric use,cost of bulb replacement......
I don't remember much on the my "....." isn't getting enough under my dual 250s?
I know many who with great leds(like my acans) who still fire up their MH 250s for 2 hour mid day burn!
They have exceptional success with this method.
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:20 AM   #24
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The mid day burn hahaha. I like that phrasing
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:52 AM   #25
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More reading on SPS corals is needed by some people. There are more and more Reefers going back to Halides, because of color for one, and growth for 2. They've been using LEDs for a couple of years, and have noted that their corals do not grow nor look as good as they were under Halides. And I'm afraid, they are not stupid for wanting to go back.
So you say.

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lol How can you say our lights are not trying to replicate the sun? Okay.....
because you can look at any forum, including the ones you've already been banned from, and see that not one tank has been lit with the color of natural sunlight.
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Actually if you do fluorescent night dives and use yellow filtering you are able to see the corals much better..
This pertains how?
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There's down sides to LED just like there's downsides to metal halides. I don't think you can't blanket say there is no downside. And that's not even taking into many different types of LEDs available.
Then let's hear them. What are these downsides?

So, then why are leds so popular and halides not selling any longer? If they are so inferior, they should have been put to the wayside by now...don't you think?
I get the same growth out of leds as I did halides or T5s. I'm still waiting for the led fixture that can grow corals at 5' depth.


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There are many threads with "old schoolers" wanting their VHO's back(seriously!)
I am not a lighting guru(but I know at least 1,umm)
and BELIEVE the largest down side to MH are all human issues like heat,electric use,cost of bulb replacement......
Some folks just can't master the led fixtures. They use PAR meters and the naked eye and end up giving up. It doesn't mean they don't work. I see many more success stories than failures with led.
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:07 PM   #26
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because you can look at any forum, including the ones you've already been banned from, and see that not one tank has been lit with the color of natural sunlight.
.
Your kidding right.....????
https://www.google.com/search?q=natu...FceXiAodJLMBtA
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:57 PM   #27
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Lighting debate

Great thread, maybe too passionate?

I can only chime in and discuss my research. So JIMO:

Color absorption in seawater is a fact, higher energy blue penetrates deeper and as a result, deep water corals have adapted to that spectrum. But the effect requires a much deeper water column than any of our tanks represent. You start loosing the warmer frequencies around 10' depending on the clarity of the water. Few home aquaria are this deep, so the effect is pretty meaningless. All frequencies penetrate just fine in a 3' deep tank. So we are dealing with evolution here. The colors the corals can absorb depends on the color of the symbiotic algae. That algae can change in most instances to adapt to whatever is available. Depending on flow and other effects, this can either go well for the coral, or badly.

As far as wattages, photons are photons. I disagree with X on one count that 1 watt LED's don't grow coral. That's too broad a statement. Depending on LED efficiency and lenses (if installed) the photon density can be reached with a series of 1 watt or 3 watt. Generally though, 3 watt emitters are later generation and more efficient. But read this:

These guys build a lot of fixtures.

"We source top-bin LEDs from some of the best/largest LED manufacturers in the world. You are correct....it is not the LED wattage that is important. Remember, we are not lighting our tank with electrical watts, but rather radiometric watts. Hence, we tend to focus on 1) how much light the LED produces, 2) how efficiently the LED produces the light, 3) the lifetime reliability rating of the LED and 4) the cost of the LED. These are all very important considerations for building high quality, low cost lighting systems. We are continually evaluating LEDs from various companies, as we will only use the products that allow us to meet the above design considerations.

Here is a brief summary of the 1W vs 3W question I posted on the site last week:

We use both 1W and 3W LEDs in our fixtures. However, we believe the industry is too focused on the wattage of the LEDs. Alternatively, consumers should be looking at the Delivered Efficiency Rating (DER) of an LED lighting system. This is calculated by dividing the amount of light output that reaches the intended target (i.e. inside the aquarium) by the electrical input watts. This takes all of the marketing & hype out of the equation, and puts the focus on the metric that actually matters to consumers. As an analogy, focusing on the LED is synonymous to focusing on the engine of a car. By itself, it does nothing, and without a good drivetrain (i.e. optical and thermal management system in an LED fixture), a high performance engine will simply cause the customer to consume more gas than necessary to achieve highway speeds

In our design philosophy, the goal of an aquarium lighting system is to consume the fewest watts possible to deliver the required light levels with the best intensity and color uniformity ratios possible. Why use 140 watts if you can achieve this goal with 70 watts?"


So, yes, lower wattage LED's can be used as long as you remember the efficiency statements made above.

The color question is pretty complex as there are various factors, flow, placement, where the coral evolved and at what depth and what effect the spectrum you are using is having on the symbiotic population. That also controls how much total light they need during a day. Under high flow, they can take more, than at low flow. In general, they can grow just under blue light, but in many opinions that is not how we want to see them. As a underwater photographer I totted big lights down to the reef to add those warmer colors and get the corals to look natural, not just shades of blue. So the Reds and greens are more for us than the corals. A coral can get some benefit from even a red light but it may cause the algae to change (brown) to be more efficient at absorbing that warmer color, or if that color causes the coral to overproduce algae.

Halides grow corals, T5's grown corals, plasma grows corals and even natural sunlight ( can grow corals. LEDs certainly grow them as well when designed properly. Each to their own, I just find the advantages of LED now vastly outweighs the benefits of the other technologies in price and efficiency. I have had cheap fixtures that would only grow SPS if just inches away and I have had some that would grow coral from across the room. Color, efficiency, lensing and total radiological wattage is what determines the distance you can operate at and the amount of total PUR you can deliver to the coral over so many hours.

So everybody is right to a degree IMO. A crummy led fixture "can" perhaps grow SPS, it just depends on the distance, spectrum and duration.






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Old 06-27-2015, 07:18 PM   #28
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So, then why are leds so popular and halides not selling any longer? If they are so inferior, they should have been put to the wayside by now...don't you think?
I get the same growth out of leds as I did halides or T5s. I'm still waiting for the led fixture that can grow corals at 5' depth.
What do you mean Halides not selling any longer? There is still a huge market for halides and they're still making fixture for them. I can tell you right now I know a lot of people with 500gal+ coral tanks and you will never be able to provide those tanks with LED coverage without seriously breaking the bank. But 3 400Watt MH will do it just fine. Each situation has different requirements.

Even for freshwater planted tank. The ADA Solar Series uses T5 and MH.... I think we can all agree Takashi knows what he's doing with lights..

They even make Halides and LEDs in the same fixture now.

I could grow corals with a Kessil at 5ft.

Frankly I could grow any NPS coral at 5' with an LED. Pretty much all softies. I know Xenia would grow for sure at 5'.... Zoas will too. Bubble tip anems will also. So will bubble corals. So many corals will absolutely thrive haha.

Obviously I'm getting technically here but there are "corals" that will be sustained.. I think you're a little too convinced by LED and are ignoring all the benefits of halides. The sheer power of halides and reflectors to cover an entire tank area is comparable to none... You even have a better shimmer in the water with MH than most LEDs.

I'd even be willing to say I could get corals to grow with a Current USA light fixture at the bottom of a 60" tank... This would be more difficult but there are totally corals out there.. Much more factors to consider.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:16 PM   #29
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Wrong on the shimmer and buying bulbs every 6 months and running a chiller was my life for 20 years. I started using LED and I threw my MH into storage, for good. I still have friends that like old glass tube televisions and shun new flat screens. But to say MH is superior is just wrong in my opinion.


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Old 06-28-2015, 12:48 AM   #30
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I'd have to agree about the shimmer affect. I've run 250w Halides with Bat Wings, and they by far had a ton more shimmer than my current units to. then again, all halides shimmered, you have to get the correct led unit for this, the leds all shimmer, but different ones shimmer better than others.
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Old 06-28-2015, 07:58 AM   #31
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You could easily light a reef tank with leds for less than you would need to spend on halides. I've been doing it for years.
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:48 AM   #32
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You could easily light a reef tank with leds for less than you would need to spend on halides. I've been doing it for years.
+1 Same here. I have never looked back either! The LEDS add that nice shimmer as well as the efficiency.
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Old 06-28-2015, 12:37 PM   #33
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You could easily light a reef tank with leds for less than you would need to spend on halides. I've been doing it for years.
Agreed. You can get them for much much less nowadays.
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Old 06-28-2015, 01:14 PM   #34
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I could grow corals with a Kessil at 5ft.
Prove it. Prove that you can keep a reef that's 5' deep.
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Frankly I could grow any NPS coral at 5' with an LED. Pretty much all softies. I know Xenia would grow for sure at 5'.... Zoas will too. Bubble tip anems will also. So will bubble corals. So many corals will absolutely thrive haha.

Obviously I'm getting technically here but there are "corals" that will be sustained.. I think you're a little too convinced by LED and are ignoring all the benefits of halides. The sheer power of halides and reflectors to cover an entire tank area is comparable to none... You even have a better shimmer in the water with MH than most LEDs.

I'd even be willing to say I could get corals to grow with a Current USA light fixture at the bottom of a 60" tank... This would be more difficult but there are totally corals out there.. Much more factors to consider.
I can easily cover the same area with my leds that I did with 400 watt halides in lumenarc reflectors. As for "sheer power", that will certainly be seen on your electric bill. "Better shimmer" is about turbulence on the surface, not which type of lighting you are using. The bottom line is that the more surface area your light covers, the less shimmer you are going to get. This is why you see no shimmer with tube lighting. If both sources of light are coming from a central point, like a halide lamp or a single led, you are going to get identical shimmer as long as the surface turbulence is the same.

Your current led fixture example is ridiculous. I'd love to see that beautiful reef
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Old 06-28-2015, 01:38 PM   #35
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. The bottom line is that the more surface area your light covers, the less shimmer you are going to get. This is why you see no shimmer with tube lighting. If both sources of light are coming from a central point, like a halide lamp or a single led, you are going to get identical shimmer as long as the surface turbulence is the same.

Don't think so.
I kept 2 250w Halides over an 8' 240g tank, only 2, using Batwings, at the same height Im using my LED Units, and the BAt Wings were spread all the way out, for maximum coverage, and the LEDs cover much less area, with or without then lenses, that I've hence taken off, and changed with other optics, no matter how you want to slice it, the Halides will crush the LEDs with shimmer. "Disclaimer" DEPENDING ON WHAT UNIT YOU USE.
Period, theres no fighting over this one, anyone who's used Halides and now this type of LED won't argue the point.
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Old 06-28-2015, 02:04 PM   #36
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Lighting debate

I will. The shimmer I get from my DIY Cree fixtures with lenses is far more pronounced than what I had when I lit with three 500 watt MH. Bright point sources create shimmer from surface agitation. The brighter the point sources, the more shimmer.

I can now also grow corals that did poorly under just MH. The chiller rarely runs, my power bill is half and I don't have to keep a continuous inventory of explosive bulbs around.


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Old 06-28-2015, 02:35 PM   #37
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Bummer, they don't make 500w Reef Metal Halide Lamps.
At least if we are going to debate this stuff, you could at least make it real life stuff we area debating about, not made up stuff.
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Old 06-28-2015, 03:11 PM   #38
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Uhmm, he didn't say 500 watt "bulb", so it could easily be one of the numerous 500 watt MH fixtures that use two 250 watt bulbs. They are considered 500 watt MH lights.
or they could have been units designed for hydroponics.
I know he uses a moving rack light system that was designed for hydroponics for his reef, why not the lights as well?
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Old 06-28-2015, 03:18 PM   #39
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Lighting debate

My apologies, I meant 400 watts, I used 500 watt hydroponic fixtures on my ATS.

I am abandoning this post as the attitude here sucks. Reef Madness, lighten up dude. Nobody is as smart as they think they are, including you. No need to get mad and defensive.


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Old 06-28-2015, 07:11 PM   #40
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Uhmm, he didn't say 500 watt "bulb", so it could easily be one of the numerous 500 watt MH fixtures that use two 250 watt bulbs. They are considered 500 watt MH lights.
or they could have been units designed for hydroponics.
I know he uses a moving rack light system that was designed for hydroponics for his reef, why not the lights as well?
He said 3 500w lamps
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