Mandarins, are they really a difficult fish?

[cmor1701d]

@Andy, Thanks. I just realized that I bought this tank in February in 2003. Now I wondering about that 10 year tank guarantee
Doing the math the mandarin was really only 6 years+.

I have heard of others who bought ORA Mandarins that suddenly stopped eating prepared foods. No one could think of a reason, they just stopped one day. That's kind of why I am torn about getting a new one or leaving this species to the wild. I feel much stronger about leaving anemones in the wild, but I may get there with this fish too. Too many perish in that first year to make it worthwhile.

More and more fish are being captive raised. The wholesalers are getting much better at growing them out. Hopefully that will continue and more species will be TR.

[Andy Sager]

Originally Posted by Gregcoyote

You are the record holder IMO. 7 years is quite an accomplishment. You must have one heck of a reef. I have many fish almost 10 years old, but never got close to that with a Mandarin. As a diver that has spent some time with tangs in the wild, I am torn by my desire as a aquarist and my desire to see animals not taken from the wild. I think, like coral fragging, we will see more of the wholesalers capturing thousands of larval fish and growing them out. As in the wild that is about a 1000 to 1 chance of survival at that stage (or more) the wild population isn't affected.

With all due respect, the wholesaler is not going to be growing out larval fish from the wild. Fish farmers are the ones that will be handling this undertaking. Once again, these will not be wild. One of the biggest problems they will face is creating a system where egg scattering fish such as Tangs, Angels and Butterflies can grow and breed and the eggs won't get lost into the filtering systems during the planktonic stage.

Many years ago a company in FL was artifically spawning a Black Angel/ French Angel cross. They had to spawn the fish manually which can be very stressful on the fish. I'm not sure butterflies and tangs would do well using this method. I'm looking for the day when I can buy a Tank Raised Black Tang

[Andy Sager]

Originally Posted by cmor1701d

@Andy, Thanks. I just realized that I bought this tank in February in 2003. Now I wondering about that 10 year tank guarantee
Doing the math the mandarin was really only 6 years+.

I have heard of others who bought ORA Mandarins that suddenly stopped eating prepared foods. No one could think of a reason, they just stopped one day. That's kind of why I am torn about getting a new one or leaving this species to the wild. I feel much stronger about leaving anemones in the wild, but I may get there with this fish too. Too many perish in that first year to make it worthwhile.

More and more fish are being captive raised. The wholesalers are getting much better at growing them out. Hopefully that will continue and more species will be TR.

Geez Cmor... I'm using tanks today that are over 25 years old and only came with a 1 year guarantee when I got them 25+ years ago. You guys today are soooo lucky! a 10 year warrenty

It has been my experience that when fish stop eating a particular food, something has either changed in the food (ie. it went bad) or conditions in the tank changed (sometimes unnoticably by the hobbyist). Sometimes it's a new tankmate causing the problem. This is where you need to be a detective and analyze the situation. If the situation is not tank mate related, I have often been able to reverse this by trying a new package of the same food first followed by a water change if the food didn't do anything. It rarely is the fish's fault. Once again tho, these are live animals and things happen.

[Gregcoyote]

Originally Posted by Andy Sager

With all due respect, the wholesaler is not going to be growing out larval fish from the wild. Fish farmers are the ones that will be handling this undertaking. Once again, these will not be wild. One of the biggest problems they will face is creating a system where egg scattering fish such as Tangs, Angels and Butterflies can grow and breed and the eggs won't get lost into the filtering systems during the planktonic stage.

Many years ago a company in FL was artifically spawning a Black Angel/ French Angel cross. They had to spawn the fish manually which can be very stressful on the fish. I'm not sure butterflies and tangs would do well using this method. I'm looking for the day when I can buy a Tank Raised Black Tang

I meant facilities that grow out larvel fish, we had better hope this becomes more common as it is my guess that collecting tangs for instance from the wild will be a past memory. It is almost inevitable. Coral Magazine did a article on tangs that spoke about that very issue of raising them from larval stages if they can be gathered in a effective way. When I started in saltwater many years ago the idea of fragging corals was considered something that a laboratory did. Collectors just pulled big specimens off the reef and bagged then tagged them. While this still happens, it isn't as common and the trend is for it to be more responsible in the future. As a diver, I want plenty of these fish on the reef and not necessarily in my tank. And yes, I have some yellow tangs and yes, I feel a little guilty about it. One reason I take very good care of them as I would think of it as a waste if they didn't live a good life. Totally different feeling about a tank raised clown fish for example, as I am not denying the ecosystem that fish.

[Andy Sager]

Originally Posted by Gregcoyote

I meant facilities that grow out larvel fish, we had better hope this becomes more common as it is my guess that collecting tangs for instance from the wild will be a past memory. It is almost inevitable. Coral Magazine did a article on tangs that spoke about that very issue of raising them from larval stages if they can be gathered in a effective way. When I started in saltwater many years ago the idea of fragging corals was considered something that a laboratory did. Collectors just pulled big specimens off the reef and bagged then tagged them. While this still happens, it isn't as common and the trend is for it to be more responsible in the future. As a diver, I want plenty of these fish on the reef and not necessarily in my tank. And yes, I have some yellow tangs and yes, I feel a little guilty about it. One reason I take very good care of them as I would think of it as a waste if they didn't live a good life. Totally different feeling about a tank raised clown fish for example, as I am not denying the ecosystem that fish.

I wasn't trying to bust your chops but for all those out there who think the big bad wholesalers are the problem, they are sorely mistaken. (speaking as a former wholesaler.) The demand for the fish is the biggest culprit and that comes from the hobbyists. Now, that doesn't mean that the hobby should be avoided or disbanded. It just means that it needs to be refined. Look at all the freshwater fish on the market today that don't exist in the wild. If it wasn't for breeding programs, there would only be 1 type of Swordtail, 1 type of Guppy, Molly, Angelfish etc. If the marine hobby gets to the same point, the need to take fish from the oceans would diminish greatly.

Regarding taking larval fish to grow out, that requires the wild fish to be there breeding and it diminishes the future generations for the oceans. Follow this: It's figured that 1% of a spawning reaches breeding size. So if a fish lays 1000 eggs, 10 fish are going to populate the next generation. I know this sounds far fetched but here's the problem with taking the larval fish from the ocean: How do you know that the ones you take aren't the 1% that will mature. It's not all arbitrary, meaning that just because you take 100 fish from that 1000 egg spawn, it doesn't mean that the other 900 are destined to have 10 to reach maturity. The 10 could have been in the 100 you took. Like I said, I know this sounds a bit goofy but I see it all the time when I'm breeding fish. Why do some of my colors produce 75% survival when other colors only produce 10% survival? (I can't tell which ones are going to be the survivors when they first hatch.) I'm breeding the same species of fish! The only differences are the genetics of the fish.

I believe the hobby needs to get to where one can take a pair of fish ( or school of fish) and have them eventually reproduce enough fish to supply the hobby. I'm just hoping I'm still around when and if that happens.

I'll be more than happy to lend a hand if someone else will lend the money as it has proven that it will take A LOT of money to reproduce quantities of marine fish. Any takers?

[mwilliams]

Well I have been putting it off and off and off and just happened to walk into one of the LFS that I go to and just happen to see a Xl Mandarin and he just gave me those eyes that I just could not pass up. After acciliamating him and put him into the tank to my surprise he did not even hide just went to town picking stuff off the rocks. Even my Naso was trying to give him a hard time and he paid no attention to him just kept on picking on the rocks moving from place to place.

[carey]

My mandy is oblivious to anything going on around her lol. My yellow watchamn goby tries to give her grief but she just keeps fluttering along paying him no mind.

Good luck with your new fish! I hope you have a great pod population and she gets nice and fat!

[Andy Sager]

Glad to hear it Mandarins are beautiful fish and worth the effort. Just make sure you have alternative foods available if your tank doesn't keep up with the fish's food requirements. You may want to start trying to feed an assortment of foods so that the fish doesn't get locked into one food. Just a thought...

[mwilliams]

Not sure how to get this one to eat other foods just yet. This is not from ORA.
Sorry for the spot on the pic I forgot to clean the glass before I took this picture.

[Gregcoyote]

Check out the threads on the Coral Magazine article we all discussed a few months back. They outlined the only approach I have ever seen work.

[Andy Sager]

Originally Posted by mwilliams

Sorry for the spot on the pic I forgot to clean the glass before I took this picture.

I hate when that happens. I've had more great shots of my fish ruined by a spot on the glass
Here's an idea for feeding, take some other form of food, for example frozen prawn or zooplankton, and chop or blend it until it is in small pieces (small enough to fit in it's mouth) then mix with some water and use a turkey baster to get the food close to the fish and see if it eats it. (Obviously you don't want to scare the fish when you plunge the food into the water. Make it look natural )

I've basted a number of fish over the years. Just make sure you clean out the bulb of the baster when you are done.

[mwilliams]

Mine past away two days after I bought it.

[Andy Sager]

Originally Posted by mwilliams

Mine past away two days after I bought it.

It probably wasn't healthy when you bought it or you aclimated it too fast. That's assuming that your tank was in perfect conditions when you got the fish. Healthy, well aclimated fish that go into good functioning tanks don't die that fast.
Sorry for your lose

[mwilliams]

I floated the bag for 30 minutes and was slowly putting water into the bag and hadeft the room the bag had went down into the tank before I could finish acclimating him. How long was he suppose to have been acclimated for?

[Andy Sager]

Originally Posted by mwilliams

I floated the bag for 30 minutes and was slowly putting water into the bag and hadeft the room the bag had went down into the tank before I could finish acclimating him. How long was he suppose to have been acclimated for?

I am sure that there will be a number of people who disagree with me about this but bag acclimating SW fish is not the proper way of acclimating. The reason you float a bag of fish is to get the water temp in the bag to match the water temp in the tank. I have always preferred to do a bucket acclimation with an airstone and slow drip. The amount of time is dependant on the volume of water you start with. I use the 1 drop per second method from the drip line. When completed, the water volume should be 99 parts your water,1 part water the fish came from. However long it takes. Sounds like yours was an aclimation issue provided that the water parameters in your tank were good.
You have to remember, fish can live in a bad system if they have had the time to gradually adjust to it. New fish, on the other hand, can't or actually, won't.
I'm sure you will find some good articles on this site about acclimating fish or in the magazines.
Hope this helps a bit

[mwilliams]

Yes thank you I have done the bucket acclimattion but I would put about one cup of water in there every ten to fifteen minutes for about 45 to 1 hr. Well if I should ever try another and that is a big if I will use the bucket again.

[Andy Sager]

Originally Posted by mwilliams

Yes thank you I have done the bucket acclimattion but I would put about one cup of water in there every ten to fifteen minutes for about 45 to 1 hr. Well if I should ever try another and that is a big if I will use the bucket again.

The acclimation method you discribe is not really a slow acclimation. You force a lot of water at one time. The drip system does it much more slowly. Try dripping next time, also it should be done for all your fish, not just mandrins.
Hope this helps

[Gregcoyote]

Use the drip method mentioned and take at least an hour or even two to complete the process. Taking time here really can make a difference.

[Easton33]

I personally think that the Mandarins aren't as difficult as they are made out to be. I got a green mandarin when my 28g nano was about 3-4 months old, way before the recommended time to get them. I supplied it with a pack of copepods and supplied my sixline wrasse with cyclopleeze, so the wrasse wouldn't eat so many copepods. Since then, everything has been absolutely great. Once again, I strongly disagree with the complaints of their hard keeping.

[Andy Sager]

Originally Posted by Easton33

I personally think that the Mandarins aren't as difficult as they are made out to be. I got a green mandarin when my 28g nano was about 3-4 months old, way before the recommended time to get them. I supplied it with a pack of copepods and supplied my sixline wrasse with cyclopleeze, so the wrasse wouldn't eat so many copepods. Since then, everything has been absolutely great. Once again, I strongly disagree with the complaints of their hard keeping.

I knew I couldn't be the only one who had some success with this fish
The next big challenge, Juvenile Pinnatus Batfish?