Stop me before I kill somethin'

[youronlysin]

I've been raising freshwater fish for a little while now and things have finally settled down to where I'm not obsessively monitoring water parameters on an hourly basis

I want to set up a saltwater tank so bad I cant stand it...the saltwater fish and life available are just so beatiful. My wife and I dont have the luxurly of being able to spend a lot of money on fish, so we have to work with what we have, or find a way to do it slow and easy. So, my question is, can I do this without having to spend 1000 dollars? I know that bigger tanks are easier to maintain and most fish will do better in the bigger tanks, but I dont know how exactly big of tank I can afford just yet. As far as stocking it goes, I know for a fact that I'll be labeled a "bad dad" if I dont get an Anemone and a "Nemo" Clown fish. Hopefully Nemo can survive without Dory, or Ill have to find a way to incorporate her into the mix too. With that, I have no clue what to fill a tank with to even get started, and what kind of other fish will work with the Percular clown.

At the local Saltwater place, they have a 7 Gal. tank with some rock, an anemone and a pair of Clowns in it. There is no filter on the tank that I can see and no other animals, other than what lives on the rock. They have a small fan blowing on the water, some fancy light and some pumps that provide water current. Thats it. Makes it look easy, but the store keeper said it takes someone who knows saltwater tanks very well to keep one that small. Can I get into something with Anemone and a clown or two in a twenty gallon tank? 30?

 

[darb2]

The clowns would be ok. Regal tangs need space,at least 75 gal. Unfortunately the anemone is another matter. The tank should be running for a year before one is added. And they have a high mortality rate.

 

[indy]

Welcome to the hobby. And sorry for what I feel will be another long post from me. Most of this is my opinion based on my experience and research. Others will have their opinions, get them all and make an educated decision.

I'll give you what answers I can and others will chime in shortly. Do lots of research before you start, get some good books and read the forums. This will save you a lot of hastle, money, and time.

Firstly, despite some of the numbers you'll find here, you can start a SW setup pretty inexpensively as long as you have some patience and are a bit of a diy'er. I'll get to that in a minute. For a ready to go in a relatively short time tank, you'll be dropping some serious cash. For a 55g FOWLR with DSB you can get started for less than $500.

Secondly, nothing good happens fast in the SW world. That's why everyone recommends starting with the largest tank you can afford. The larger water volume will make bad things happen slower, allowing you to catch and correct them. A 7g tank for a newbie is more than likely going to be a money pit of dead fish and frustration. The one at the lfs is likely running a penguin style bio-wheel hood setup that hides the filtration above the water line.

Thirdly, nemo will be fine in a smaller tank. Anemones will not, and Dory needs at least a 70g. Dory is also a disease magnet, specifically ich. An anemone also should not be tried unless you have a very established system, most recommend at least a year of success in the tank before you even attempt one. It requires "pristine" water conditions.

And now welcome to Indy's world of budget reefing! tm. (Indy's world of budget reefing is not affiliated with the discount marijuana growers union or the Indy 500. No warrenty expressed or implied, mileage may vary.)

Some things you absolutely must have, others are options. Once you have the must-haves, you can start your system. The options can be added as money and need arise. Being a diy'er and an ebay surfer I have saved a ton of money. My current system has been built in stages over the last year. The first 8 months don't count as I didn't do anything besides make it fish ready. The last 4 months have had more construction. No losses to date w/the excetption of 2 jumpers I found dried on the carpet. Or they were thrown out for bad behavior...

Must have's:

TANK: (duh!) start with at least a 29. If you like the SW world you'll want to upgrade soon so you might as well get the 55. SW has to keep a smaller stocking load than fresh, so smaller tanks are limited. If all you want to do is keep fish and live rock, you can buy a used tank and setup pretty cheaply, just watch the classifieds. But if you think you might want to try corals someday, buy new. If the used tank has ever been treated with copper based meds (like for ich), it will probably be toxic to corals. Tanks are cheaper than corals, so go with the new tank.

HEATER: Full submersible rather than the HOB style. I use a 300w for my 55 w/10g fuge and it works just dandy.

Water flow: powerheads or pumps, shoot for around 10xtank volume for turnover.

Lighting: for fowlr the fluo. strip that comes with the tank is ok, but more light is better. For corals you'll need a lot more light. Lights are THE most expensive part.

Salt: self explanitory.

Rock: and lots of it, at least 1-2 lbs per gal. Live rock is very expensive. Base rock is very cheap. If you put in a lot of base and a little live, the life on the live will slowly spread to the base. Takes more patience, but a lot less money.

Good test kit:

Optional (kind of):
Filtration: not really an option, but the type is. LFS will tell you a wet/dry is a must have, and they only cost $300 and up. I can show you how to build one for less than $50 and I'll throw in the bio-balls sitting in my closet. You'll save a lot of money and end up with the exact same water problems you'd have with the $300 one. All mechanical filtration falls into this category. If you aren't willing to do filter maintenance every day or every other, don't go this route.

Undergravel: don't even try this one for SW.

The route I recomend to everyone is Deep Sand Bed (DSB) filtration. Entirely natural, and much much cheaper than w/d. All you need is 4-6 inches of sandbed (aragonite or playsand) and good water flow. Lots of rock add to the filtration and make the fish happier. A good collection of sand sifting/burrowing worms, snails, etc. are also needed. But those little guys are needed for just about any filtration style.

Optional (really)
refugium (a darn fine idea for FO and reef both), can diy cheap
protein skimmer (another darn fine idea for all)
high intensity lighting (required for reef), can diy relatively cheap
moon lighting, can diy cheap
wave maker
chiller
probably lots of others.

Anyway, decide what you want, FO or reef. If you start FO, you'll probably want corals eventually. That just the way the disease progresses, no point in fighting it. For fish, decide what 1 fish you absolutely MUST have. The rest of your stocking will revolve around this 1 fish. And when you do get setup, remember to go fishless for your cycling.

 

[Bearfan]

Makes it look easy, but the store keeper said it takes someone who knows saltwater tanks very well to keep one that small. Can I get into something with Anemone and a clown or two in a twenty gallon tank? 30?

8O 8O WOW 8O 8O

An honest LFS owner not looking to make the sale at any cost. He is correct, I know sure as shoot that with my limited experience in SW (6 mos), I would surely be unable to handle a nano cube.

 

[hydrohoki]

I wouldn't recommend it, but my first tank was a 5 gallon. I've been a nano-reefer ever since. The difference is the chemistry. If you have a background in chemistry and the persistance to keep it in check I think you could do it. If you have the funds and want two clowns, go with the 20 or 30.

Down the road if you want to go nano, go to nano-reef.com

 

[youronlysin]

Wow. Lots of ideas. First, I have a few Questions and statements. Lets see if I can top indy.

My wife and I will be moving from Idaho to Virginia Next summer. If its best, I should probably start getting everything together now, and wait to set it all up after we move; sounds like its going to take some time to get the necessary components. I dont imagine I will want to tear down a 55 gallon tank to move it 3000 miles. A little off subject, when we do move, I was thinking about taking my FW fish to the lfs and either trading them in on hardware or cash and just buying new fish when we get to virginia. I dont know how hard it will be to keep fish alive during a 2500 mile roadtrip.

I really better search the forums a tad before I start asking, but it seems most of the questions people ask are already assuming they know what they're dealing with to some point. So.....first off you mention FOWLR, and then Coral. Im assuming that LR is merely the fancy rock formations that have micro-organisms or barnacles and stuff on them? That sounds like something every tank would have a little of. Coral is nice, I dont know what it takes to have both.

The fish arent important, I dont have to have Dory in there too, I just know the kids would love it. I'll look around and see if we cant find something the clowns can live with.

With all that rock and sand, doesnt it seem a bit dangerous to have all that weight on the bottom of the tank? The bottom glass doesnt even sit on the stand; does anyone use some kind of rubber feet or anything to help disperse the weight or should the tank be strong enough on its own? I want to build my own stand/cabinet so do I only need to worry about supporting the tank from the edges that touch the ground? (nothing in the middle)

The Saltwater Emporium down the street sells imported ocean water for your tank. Is that a preferred method of filling, or is it simple to just add the right salt to tap water? If I wait to fill the tank until after I move to Virginia, can I just scoop up some water from the Atlantic (We're moving to Williamsburg) and pour it in my tank?? BTW, regarding the 7 gallon tank the LFS has, there is no filtration other than the roughly 4 inches of sand, rock and the life in the tank. The hood is modified so that they could put some kind of bright lights in it...no room for filtration. It is neat looking, but seems a bit dirty. Are all Saltwater tanks with live rock and critters always dirty? I dont mean un-kept, I jsut mean most of the ones I saw overthere had brown gunk in all of the corners and edges of the glass and all over every piece of hardware. They use those magnetic scrapers to clean the glass, but would that brown algae or whatever it grow that way on every saltwater tank? Maybe they need some more ofthe right creatures to eat it up?

 

[hydrohoki]

As far as I've tried, (and the reason I have small tanks) moving can be done. That far will be really tough. I'd wait.

(Where in Virginia are you moving to? I'm from Blacksburg area)

From my understanding and I hope people will correct me if I'm wrong. A glass tank should be able to handle the weight. If you are getting Acrylic you'll need a stand to support the whole underside since it is deformable.

I wouldn't use tap water. Either use DI or RO/DI (you can get this at your LFS) and mix it or use the imported (I always mix my own). Other's may have an opinion, I don't know what the difference in cost would be either. You might look into that.

Good luck.

 

[youronlysin]

Williamsburg

(Where in Virginia are you moving to? I'm from Blacksburg area)

 

[Sparky]

And now welcome to Indy's world of budget reefing! tm. (Indy's world of budget reefing is not affiliated with the discount marijuana growers union or the Indy 500. No warrenty expressed or implied, mileage may vary.)

LMAO


That is a very good post Indy. I wish that was here when I started. I like the DIY stuff better anyway. I can pretty much buy what I want but, it is so much more fun to "build" it from scratch. It costs less too. There is such a high mark-up on aquarium stuff.

Mike

 

[lando]

Welcome to the site and welcome to saltwater! Keeping saltwater fish is a perfect hobby for someone in your position. You do not need to get the best of everything right away. It is very hard for anyone to drop $2000 on a tank before they even know they will be able to keep anything alive. This is truly a hobby of patience. indy's post is great so I do not need to address anything there. here is some advice that I can give...When you decide to buy equipment like filters, skimmers and such, get ones that are rated for a bigger tank then you currently have. They generally are not that much more expensive and when you decide to get a larger tank you will already have most of the things to go with it. you do not need to buy a skimmer right off the bat. you can get going without it and add it later. Buy equipment and livestock on-line, it is way cheaper and you will save a bundle. Develope a good relationship with a LFS and has a good reputation and is willing to help educate. Lastly...keeping asking questions and doing research on this site. you can learn a lot from the mistakes of others. Good luck! Lando

 

[srgetz]

If its best, I should probably start getting everything together now, and wait to set it all up after we move; sounds like its going to take some time to get the necessary components.

Well yea, you could look for deals now since you have so much time, like in the buy/sell forum or ebay. But really if you are buying the heater/ skimmer/salt/sand/testkit new, you may as well wait till you get there. Why chance something breaking in transit? You could order all that online in a moments notice (at a big savings over lfs also). It will probably take time to figure out what hardware / type of setup you need though.

 

[srgetz]

The Saltwater Emporium down the street sells imported ocean water for your tank. Is that a preferred method of filling, or is it simple to just add the right salt to tap water?

Tap water is OK for a FO tank, that is about it. Many locations, mine included, have tap water laden with nitrates and other bad things that tap water conditioner will not remove. Try to find a source of RO water if you can, but tap will promote excess algae in any tank and should not be used in a reef.

 

[OneBowl]

youronlysin,

One additional cost savings idea for you: consider a used set-up. A fair number of people leave the hobby for various reasons. Once the decision is made to depart, complete set-ups are often offered at 25-50 cents on the dollar, or less. So keep your eyes on newspapers (especially small local ones) and internet ads for great deals. It may take awhile to find something suitable, so while you research, watch. Just one example: I recently saw an entire 125 gallon reef ready set-up, with stand, sump, AquaC skimmer, powerheads, lights, heater, DSB, 200 pounds of LR (!) and fully stocked. Asking price: $750. That's less than the price of the LR alone. It was awesome. The guy was off to college. Unfortunately, I didn't have the space for a 125. Every 2-3 months I see a deal like the above. Good luck.

 

[OneBowl]

youronlysin,

One additional cost savings idea for you: consider a used set-up. A fair number of people leave the hobby for various reasons. Once the decision is made to depart, complete set-ups are often offered at 25-50 cents on the dollar, or less. So keep your eyes on newspapers (especially small local ones) and internet ads for great deals. It may take awhile to find something suitable, so while you research, watch. Just one example: I recently saw an entire 125 gallon reef ready set-up, with stand, sump, AquaC skimmer, powerheads, lights, heater, DSB, 200 pounds of LR (!) and fully stocked. Asking price: $750. That's less than the price of the LR alone. It was awesome. The guy was off to college. Unfortunately, I didn't have the space for a 125. Every 2-3 months I see a deal like the above. Good luck.

 

[youronlysin]

So how do I start this thing? Do I add sand, rock and water and thats it? What about live sand? If the tank isn't cycled, how does it stay alive? I can get the rock and sand locally and fast as there is a saltwater specialty store three blocks from me. I only worry about starting the cycle process....I assume I can do this with the live rock and live sand without killing whatever critters are there? The shrimp idea sounds easy enough to start the cycle; think I'll do it that way. Do I need to fill the tank with water and get it up to temp before I add the sand and rock?

Just a question cause Im curious.... How do you put an Anemone in your tank anyway? Just pick it up and set it on a rock? Dontthey sting or something?

 

[youronlysin]

Does the weight of LR vary so much store to store because of the amount of life on the rock? In the same town, I can find Fiji LR for 8 dollars a pound, and another store sells it for 4 dollars a pound. Just kind of makes me wonder what I'll be getting for lower prices.

 

[TwtyBrd]

What we did was mix the water and salt in the tank, then added sand(live aragonite sand for us didnt cloud much), then we added the LR. We bought cured LR from the LFS and hardly had a cycle at all. We let it sit empty for about 5 weeks to be sure, while doing small weekly water changes to try and save as much life during the cycle as possible. One thing I would do differently is order LR online at much cheaper prices and let it all cure at once in the tank. If you add LR over time it may cause an ammonia spike each time you add more. JMO. The tiny critters that come out of the rock when its cured is so cool, my favorite part actually!

 

[lando]

LR does vary from place to place. When buying LR make sure it has good coraline algea coverage and looks nice. There are many LFS sellin "live Rock" that looks like regular rock. Also, The type of rock makes a difference. Fiji is usually lighter then say, Carribean or Florida rock, it is less dense. Honestly, if you are starting a new tank, you can get great LR from liverocks.com. Buy it all at once and throw it in your tank when you start your cycle. As for the innitial mix, it really does not matter. You can fill the tank with sand then add water, then salt to the desired SG. the ater will be murky for a few days but that is normal.