Sump / Refugium question

[boardsurfer]

Hi all,

I'm considering upgrading to one of these tomorrow. And for some reason, I can't wrap my brain around this right now. What happens when the water level evaporates by 1 inch and the left chamber does not spill over to the second (middle) chamber? What stops this from happening so the return pump doesn't suck air?

The reason I ask is because in my current system, I have a wet/dry sump with 1 chamber (with bio-balls removed long ago). When the water level used to get low (say, when I'm on vacation), the sump level would get low, but I would add water when I got back. No problems.

With this new system, it appears if my water level drops by 1 inch (or just below my built-in returns from the display tank), it'll cause an issue where the water won't fill the sump, and my return pump will suck air.

I appreciate your help!

[carey]

If I;m getting you right, the evaporation will occur in the last chamber where your return pump is. I have to top off twice a day in my open top 125g tank. You can also consider getting an ATO set up so it automatically fills that chamber from a reservoir when it gets low.

[kdogg85]

Yep, the last chamber is where the evap happens. IOne thing you will get when the water evaps too much is microbubbles from the waterfall effect of the last divider, the return pump will blast the DT full of them. And can cause the overflow device to lose syphon.

A cheaper ATO is to use a limit switch with a float to turn the top off pump on and off. This is what I use. But, this can be dangerous due to cutting and splicing elctrical wiring.

Certain precautions have to be taken when doing this. When I done my splicing, I used heat shrink tubing to cover the spliced cord and then placed a layer of silcone over top of that to help ensure water proofness.

[boardsurfer]

Thanks for the replies Cary and Kdogg.

So would you say that most people get an ATO system going? It sounds like if I don't top off every day, then I run the risk of the last chamber evaporating and me ruining my return pump.

Crazy there is no other method other than:
1.) ATO system
2.) Topping off twice a day or so

Do you know if I'd need to top off once or twice a day minimum? I'd love to hear from others with this same setup.

Thanks,
Mike

[mr_X]

it depends on the humidity in the air, and the size of your water surface area for the most part.
if your display is open topped, then you'll have better gas exchange, but evap more. i would rather have more evap and a healthier tank.

[boardsurfer]

I agree, Doug. I've also aimed ph's to agitate the surface as well.

I don't mind topping off, I'd just hate to have someone go over to the house to topoff if I'm gone for the weekend (which is frequently). I guess that's just more maintenance involved with this sort of sump setup.

[carey]

I've been tossing around the idea of getting one of these.

JBJ ATO Automatic Top Off System Water Level Controller - AquaCave

just havent pulled the trigger yet lol

[mr_X]

actually, you'll evap with or without a sump. you'll just see it better in the sump than you would a slight lowering of the dt water height.
just get an ATO.
i like the JBJ one. the downside is that an alarm goes off when it's topping off. it can be annoying if it's in the TV room or bedroom. i have heard of people opening it up and disabling the alarm.

[AquaRick]

Originally Posted by carey

I've been tossing around the idea of getting one of these.

JBJ ATO Automatic Top Off System Water Level Controller - AquaCave

just havent pulled the trigger yet lol

Same here. Trying to find good deals on a few items before i get my build going. This is one hobby where cutting corners doesn't pay off too well.

[boardsurfer]

Thanks for the link, Carey. That looks like a pretty good way to go.

Not exactly sure how it "tops off", unless you have to hook it up directly to a container of RO/DI water...but that's what this forum and google is for!

[mr_X]

you plug in a small pump and that small pump sits in a barrel/trash can/ bucket of fresh water.

[carey]

That's exactly what it does, it will draw ro/di water from a separate container and add it to the return pump compartment.

[boardsurfer]

Well, in that case- problem solved. I can fit a 20 gallon container next to my sump underneath with RO/DI water. That'll last a full weekend of being out of town, easily. Thanks for the help guys.

Better yet- my washer/dryer room is right behind the wall of my tank, so I might punch a hole through the drywall and have a trash can behind there with my RO/DI system. That might make for easy water changes, too.

[2Reefnutz]

Yep once you go ATO you never go back...you will love it

[boardsurfer]

Ok, purchased the sump/refugium. Now for the DSB, do I need to buy live sand? I'm guessing I don't because all of the sand in the DT is already 'live' since it's a year old.

Also, for the LR. Should I use 1 smaller piece of LR, or get a few smaller pieces of LR? I have a light over the refugium with plans to order chaeto.

I've also read that when cleaning the sump before I use it, I should use a 50/50 vinegar and water mixture to clean it. Then, after it's cleaned, fill it with the 50/50 water-vinegar mixture, and throw the (older) skimmer in there to run, and it'll clean the skimmer as well. Do you see any problems with this?

[boardsurfer]

Well, you can see my old wet/dry sump with here. I know some say this is okay for FOWLR tanks, but I will eventually upgrade to a reef in this 125gal. I really never did like the idea of bioballs, so those have been out for some time.



It was so LOUD with all the water flowing down and splashing around. It was only one (chamber?), so there were also TONS of micro bubbles in the DT.

Here is a shot of the new 30 gal sump with refugium. You can see the difference in size between the two. Plus, I love having the added volume, room, refugium, and 3 (baffles?) or sections that get rid of the micro bubbles:



I took it outside in the backyard to clean it. I used 2/3's white vinegar to water ratio to clean it. I also put my skimmer in that mixed water/vinegar to clean that as well (I let it run for a bit).



But...I found this hole in the sump for an external return pump. I'd rather have my return pump inside the sump! I don't want to mess around with any leaks...

[boardsurfer]

So I decided to plug the hole, and this is what I came up with:



So I filled it up in the backyard to test for leaks. No leaks! Now it's time to clean up all the salt creep underneath from the old, horrible, wet/dry splashing sump. Did I mention it used to be loud as all get out?

[boardsurfer]

Now it's time to put the sump underneath the DT. My measurements were correct...it fits!

However, now I have a new problem. I have two return lines coming down from the DT into the sump area. They are on opposite ends of the DT, so I have to "rig" them down into the sump until I get get new lines that will fit all the way to the left side of the sump. The return line on the right-side of the tank would not reach to the left side of the sump. So I'll have to get either some new flexible lines, or maybe plumb it with pvc? Which is the best way?



I've got the sump in there now (boy, that was tough to get in there). But it fits!

Now I've added the sand to the refugium area. I rinsed the sand thoroughly before I put it in there, to avoid a HUGE cloudy mess and debris. Also- I've heard of people doing a dsb in the sump, but I've chosen to do between 1 to 2 inches of sand in there. I got it from the LFS, and it came in a black circular bin. I'll get the name of it later. I also put the light over the sump, and of course it fits great. I like how it can slide left to right if I need it to (guess I don't really need it to though).

[AquaRick]

Sump is looking good. So your chambers go from right to left in the picture? overflow line ===> refugium ==. skimmer\return pump?

[boardsurfer]

Well, it's time to fill it with water. Here it is and everything seems to be going great.



You can see I really need to exchange out the old return lines. But for now, they'll do. I either need to get new flex lines and end fittings (and make the one on the right longer, to reach the left side of the sump) OR, I'll need to get pvc and do it that way. Does it matter which way? I'm guessing the pvc is safer, since the flex lines could split or leak over time?

Here's how it looks after running for an hour or so:




I looked at the tank, and you know what? I really have wanted to change the aqua-scaping for some time. So why not now, since the tank is already cloudy? In this photo above, I actually had the LR in the 'middle' of the tank from front to back, so I could get plenty of flow in the back, and so I can scrape the back glass.

Well guess what- I don't care to scrape the back glass anymore, I'll just let the coraline grow. Plus, I want some extra depth to the tank in the front, if I move the LR to the back of the tank. So here we go...I think it even looks like I've added LR, when I haven't! There are plenty of tunnels, holes, etc. for fish to go in and out of: