10 gallon cycle log (& questions galore)

[alex07]

8/22/2011 log

pH = 7.6
Amm = 4.0 (still!)
Nitrite = 5.0
Nitrate = 10.0

Is it time for a PWC yet, or do I need to let the Nitrates climb a little higher first?

Wait until your nitrite and nitrate are off the charts to do a 50% water change

 

[Vol4Ever]

@Max - I thought the little neons were minuscule bioload? Also looked at doing rasboras in lieu of the neons.

@Alex - Nitrite is already off the charts. I need to wait for them both to be off at the same time?

 

[maxwellag]

@Max - I thought the little neons were minuscule bioload? Also looked at doing rasboras in lieu of the neons.

@Alex - Nitrite is already off the charts. I need to wait for them both to be off at the same time?

Space is also a large concern... bio load is pretty insignificant. If you had enough filtration to put a bunch of them MIN five gallon they would not be ok for long. Space is more an issue than bio load.

 

[eco23]

Nitrite is already off the charts. I need to wait for them both to be off at the same time?

You can do water changes however often and however large you'd like...there's no harm and it can help by knocking down the no2 and restoring things to the water that the bacteria uses up. Just don't feel like you need to do one every time the no2 goes off the charts.

As long as good conversion is happening, it's not mandatory. If things seem to slow I'd do a massive one to get things moving again. It's also a good idea to just pick a couple times at the peak of your cycle to knock no2 down to .5-1. That can shave a couple days off your cycle, and prevent stalls and / or pH crashes

 

[Vol4Ever]

@ Max (& librarygirl) - I see your point on the neon's swim distance. librarygirl had mentioned that way above, too. That's when I started asking about rasboras, but no one has chimed in on that yet. To save you from digging back through the whole thread, these are my generic desires for the stocking as a whole:

1 - COLORFUL (especially orange . . . . . but not every fish)
2 - Not all of 1 fish type; a few different breeds
3 - Some selection of 1 small schooling fish
4 - Guppies are a must as I just think they are cool

@eco - Thanks for the tips. I'll probably let it go until Thursday or Friday, and then do the full testing regimen again. I'm planning a sizable water change on Friday so it will have the weekend to continue to work.

 

[Vol4Ever]

THURS AUG 25 LOG

Did about a 75% WC over lunch
Added tap water treated with NovAqua+ (switching to Prime when it runs out)
Waited a few hours for re-stabilize

pH = 7.5
Amm = 1.0
Nitrite = 0.25
Nitrate = 5.0

Added 1 mL ammonia that should dose me back up to the 4 ppm mark. Will check before I leave today.

Planning to check everything again tomorrow afternoon to see where it stands, and then let it sit for yet ANOTHER weekend. *sigh*

I agree with the poster that talked about how stressful it can be to get started in a relaxing hobby.

EDIT: Ammonia measured back at 4 ppm dead on the money.

 

[Vol4Ever]

Patience is wearing thin. Ammonia still at 4.0 today (and that's after a major water change, and re-dose back to 4 on Friday). This thing has been sitting here with filter, heater (80°), and air stone running for almost 3 weeks now.

Is this normal? I'm ready for this dark green to start reading yellow again!

 

[eco23]

Patience is wearing thin. Ammonia still at 4.0 today (and that's after a major water change, and re-dose back to 4 on Friday). This thing has been sitting here with filter, heater (80°), and air stone running for almost 3 weeks now.

Is this normal? I'm ready for this dark green to start reading yellow again!

Something is off. What brand of ammonia are you using? (sorry if you already answered that). You've definitely had some strange readings through this.

 

[Vol4Ever]

The good Ace ammonia, so that shouldn't be it. After lunch, I'm going to do all the tests again. I just did ammonia this morning honestly expecting it to be low after sitting all weekend.

I'm starting to suspect the NovAqua+ water conditioner as that's about the only variable left.

Some snippets from the NovAqua label:
Water Conditioner with Echinacea, Vitamins, and Anti-Virus Protection
Detoxifies Tap Water & Breaks Down Chloramines

In the fine print:
provides an immune system booster and a protective body slime replacer
adds electrolytes needed for proper osmotic balance
removes all chlorine, balances alkalinity, and helps stabilize water pH
contains no phosphates
will not harm biological filters or nitrifying bacteria

 

[eco23]

I don't see the water conditioner as the problem, I dont even think the bottled bacteria is involved, I'd lean more towards an issue with the tests. Some of the readings simply don't make sense.

It might actually be a good idea to bring a sample over to a lfs and have them double check your results. I assume you're doing them right, but they just don't add up. If it was simply the ammonia sitting at 4 without dropping that'd be a different story, but having no2 and no3 spikes without ammonia conversion isn't plausible IMO. When you retest, just make sure you're following the instructions in the booklet exactly (not just on the bottles), and if they still come up the same try and run by a store to have them confirm it for you.

 

[Vol4Ever]

I'm a mechanical engineer, and consider myself somewhat precise (borderline anal!) in testing and analytics. I even follow the Nitrate "shake for 30 seconds" and "shake for 60 seconds" directions while keeping an eye on my watch! I will still take some water to the LFS later, but first I want to do all the tests again after lunch just to see where they are today.

It's a head scratcher for me, too.

 

[Vol4Ever]

I don't think it is the testing methods. I tested my tap water, using the exact same dropper just to verify there wasn't some sort of dropper contamination.

pH = 7.0
Amm = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0

Then I tested the aquarium water.

pH = 7.6
Amm = 4.0
Nitrite = 5.0
Nitrate = 5.0

Since Friday's water change, the Nitrites have gone from 0.25 back off the charts again and Nitrates have stayed constant at 5. All I know to do is give it another couple of days, and then check again??

 

[eco23]

Yeah, that's definitely a puzzle. Assuming the tests are correct (which obviously it appears)...I'm a bit dumbfounded to be honest.

I'm sure you're well familiar with it, but of course ammonia turns to nitrItes, then nitrItes turn to nitrAtes, what we're trying to do is grow the little buggers that do it for us. So, unless we have reductions in ammonia, there should be no nitrIte...especially not large quantities of it spiking. You would need to have a pretty large source constantly adding ammonia to be holding it up there like a couple rotting shrimp along with the liquid ammonia you've already added.

I've seen a couple examples of this happening with substrates like eco-complete, but I don't think you're using that. I know another poster thought the bottled bacteria product could be responsible for the early readings, but a lot of time has passed since then and I don't think it's involved...especially since we'd still need to have ammonia conversion for these levels to be climbing.

Is there any possible way the ammonia was added significantly above 4ppm? I know the upper levels are hard to differentiate, and I suppose if here was a level of say 8ppm, it may be falling dramatically but since it's in the high ranges it's hard to accurately record. The Ace brand stuff is also about the most potent I've ever seen.

Another experiment to try would be doing another pwc to reduce the ammonia to low levels and see if it drops to zero over a couple days. It would be much easier to see 1ppm fall to 0, as opposed to 6ppm falling to 4. Just taking a shot in the dark here.

Out of curiosity, you may want to do a high range pH test. That's definitely a vibrant color of blue...and I'd think it's off the charts of the normal pH card (in the picture at least). I wouldn't assume it's related, but it's worth a second look.

 

[Vol4Ever]

Out of curiosity, you may want to do a high range pH test. That's definitely a vibrant color of blue...and I'd think it's off the charts of the normal pH card (in the picture at least). I wouldn't assume it's related, but it's worth a second look.

I think my pH is 7.5. It's the vibrant blue for 7.6 on the low, and the amber corresponding to 7.4 on the high. I'm assuming that means it's right between them. And the substrate is just standard blue gravel that came from Petco. It's the kind that has more of a shiny appearance than chalky, but nothing special.

Is there any possible way the ammonia was added significantly above 4ppm? I know the upper levels are hard to differentiate, and I suppose if here was a level of say 8ppm, it may be falling dramatically but since it's in the high ranges it's hard to accurately record. The Ace brand stuff is also about the most potent I've ever seen.
Another experiment to try would be doing another pwc to reduce the ammonia to low levels and see if it drops to zero over a couple days. It would be much easier to see 1ppm fall to 0, as opposed to 6ppm falling to 4. Just taking a shot in the dark here.

I went about the ammonia re-testing another way. I filled the tube with half aquarium water & half tap water. It is a much lighter shade of green now, more closely corresponding to 2.0 (which is what you would expect with 4.0 in a half/half arrangement). I'm pretty sure the 4.0 is accurate, or at least dang close.

The only other thing I've put in there is flake fish food, and that hasn't been more than 2-3 times during this whole 3 week period. Each time I'd use 3-4 flakes ground into a fine powder. There's not even enough in there to visibly see it in the gravel, so I can't imagine it's affecting anything.

 

[Vol4Ever]

LOG WED AUG 31

Amm = 4.0
Nitrite = off charts
Nitrate = 10-20 ppm (hard to distinguish)

@eco - Do you think I should just keep waiting since there is definitely activity? I've been thinking about doing a small PWC based on your other message. Maybe get the ammonia down a little lower so the changes are easier to see. My simple "half & half" test on Monday, though, did prove that 4.0 was pretty accurate. I don't think it's much above that.

This is driving me nuts.

 

[eco23]

LOG WED AUG 31

Amm = 4.0
Nitrite = off charts
Nitrate = 10-20 ppm (hard to distinguish)

@eco - Do you think I should just keep waiting since there is definitely activity? I've been thinking about doing a small PWC based on your other message. Maybe get the ammonia down a little lower so the changes are easier to see. My simple "half & half" test on Monday, though, did prove that 4.0 was pretty accurate. I don't think it's much above that.

This is driving me nuts.

At this point with the odd occurrences, if you're gonna break out the bucket, it's probably worth doing a massive pwc. One of my philosophies with aquariums is that there's very few things fresh water can't solve. I'd shoot for getting no2 down to .5-1. Depending on how high your nitrItes are (it's hard to tell once they're off the charts, it may almost take draining it to the gravel. It won't hurt your cycle at all, and will totally replenish everything the bacteria needs in the water.

I'm still a bit stumped by what's going on...but it never hurts to basically refresh and replenish everything and see what happens over the next couple days.

 

[Vol4Ever]

At this point with the odd occurrences, if you're gonna break out the bucket, it's probably worth doing a massive pwc. One of my philosophies with aquariums is that there's very few things fresh water can't solve.

Remember that I did a water change down to the gravel less than a week ago (8/25). After that change my values were:

pH=7.5
Amm=1.0
Nitrite=0.25
Nitrate=5

But then I later dosed the ammonia back up to 4. Maybe this time I'll do it & not add any ammonia back & see what happens. By the way, my LFS tells me that you should NEVER do any water changes during cycling, under any circumstances. They claim it slows down the cycle. Normally I'd blow that off, but this is a long time local business that doesn't do anything but fish. It's not a high school kid at the big box.

 

[eco23]

Remember that I did a water change down to the gravel less than a week ago (8/25). After that change my values were:

pH=7.5
Amm=1.0
Nitrite=0.25
Nitrate=5

But then I later dosed the ammonia back up to 4. Maybe this time I'll do it & not add any ammonia back & see what happens. By the way, my LFS tells me that you should NEVER do any water changes during cycling, under any circumstances. They claim it slows down the cycle. Normally I'd blow that off, but this is a long time local business that doesn't do anything but fish. It's not a high school kid at the big box.

I do get things mixed up, sorry about that. Now, the fact the ammo was still 1ppm after that seems to show the ammo was higher than 4ppm. I wouldn't skip adding ammonia, but keeping it at 1ppm for 3-4 days won't hurt. This will keep the nitrItes from piling up too quickly. There is some sort of disconnect here...nitrItes simply don't magically appear....you need ammonia being converted into it.

Now, as for the not changing water during cycling...that is somewhat of a pet peeve that ticks me off (majorly) when it's recommended. That is an old school mythology that fits into the realm of sacrificing a few "hardy" fish like Danios or feeder fish for the sake of having your tank cycled. The simple fact they say that to people is responsible for fish suffering and being killed simply because they are giving wrong and inhumane information IMO. With fish in the tank, ammonia and nitrItes reach extremely toxic levels without water changes, and it is absolutely cruel to not provide fresh water to reduce those toxins. Just because they own a store doesn't mean they understand everything. In fact, many people who have been in the hobby a long time are unwilling to learn new developments and studies simply because they are set in their ways and know "what works for them".

There are virtually nil amounts of beneficial bacteria in the water column. They are surface adherers who colonize in the filter and other well oxygenated areas of the tank...unless it is the very beginning of the cycle, there is virtually no bacteria floating in the water unless it has become dislodged. Now, doing water changes and leaving the tank bare and dry for too long can dry out the walls and potentially kill the BB living in the bio-film, but that is of very minor concern, especially with fish in the tank. Pwcs will have absolutely no measurable consequences on cycling (in any negative way)...whatever the method.

I know we're talking about fishless cycling...but I'm sure this is advice they give all customers about all forms of cycling. Sorry to go on a rant...but this old school mythology resulting in fish having their gills burned and scarred needs to be addressed.

 

[Vol4Ever]

I decided to let the whole thing sit a few more days & let nature continue to take its course. I'm off work after today for the long holiday weekend, so that gives it 4 full days to "cook" some more. Hopefully there will be some noticeable change by the time I get back on Tuesday. If there's not, I have no idea what I'll do next. This is just bizarre!

 

[Vol4Ever]

LOG TUE SEP 6

pH = 7.5
Amm = 2.0
Nitrite = off charts
Nitrate = 40-80

Seems like we are finally getting somewhere! Not going to touch it today, but planning to re-measure everything tomorrow & then do a massive WC (assuming the Nitrates have climbed even more). When re-dosing ammonia, I'm not planning to take back up to the 4.0 mark this time. Maybe keep it closer to the 2 to 3 range. Hopefully this week will complete it all, and I can finally add some fish.