Ammonia Levels Won't Drop

[Red_Ribbons]

I have a 25 litre freshwater tank which I found when moving house. I started a fishless cycle on 18th of September and intended to put one Oranda goldfish and a shrimp in it (I know that doesn't sound very exciting, but I found the tank when I was moving house. It seemed a shame to throw it out and I figured that if I got on with fish keeping I could get a bigger tank and go from there.)

I dosed the tank to 4 ppm with pure house hold ammonia and have tested the water every day but it hasn't dropped (I am using an API ammonia testing kit). The tank has a Fluval 2 filter (on it's maximum setting), one freshwater plant, gravel substrate and one low ornament- so it doesn't interfere with swimming space but provides a shrimp with a dark place to hide. (Gravel and ornament are new and were washed thoroughly before being added to the tank). I used API Stress Coat to make the water safe. As the ammonia wasn't dropping I went to my local pet store and asked for some advice. They suggested adding API Stress Zyme to the water- so I did but it didn't change anything.

Today I went to my local aquatics shop to ask for help as I figured they might be a better option than the large commercial pet shop that sold me the Stress Zyme. I took a water sample and the ammonia I used but the man didn't ask to see any of it. He just said I should empty the tank, refill it (without ammonia) and put my fish in ten days later. Although I understand that I have a little tank and I wasn't going to be the worlds most interesting fish customer I found it really interesting reading about how fish tanks work and feel a bit embarrassed that he was so dismissive of me. Even if I'm just going to buy one Oranda I would like it to be happy one.

If anyone could help me get my cycle started that would be much appreciated. If my tank is too small to deal with the whole process then I am more than willing to get a new one, I would just like to try and get it going without hurting anything. If Orandas are tough and could handle the cycling process themselves then I am happy to try that but I have read that fish can have damaged immune systems after being used for cycling and I would like to be a responsible fish keeper even if I do just have one fish.

Thank you for reading my post.

P.S:
* We have very hard water in our area and suffer with lime scale.
* I haven't started testing for NiTRITES or NiTRATES as I thought I should wait for my ammonia levels to drop first.
* I haven't done any water changes or changed the filter medium since starting the cycling process.
* Our tap water tested at 0ppm ammonia.

 

[dalto]

I dosed the tank to 4 ppm with pure house hold ammonia and have tested the water every day but it hasn't dropped (I am using an API ammonia testing kit).

Are you sure you are at 4ppm? Sometimes the tests can be hard to read. You should test nitrites and nitrates and see if they have started showing up. It is possible that you have more Ammonia than you think it is stalling the cycle. It is also possible that the ammonia is dropping it just isn't dropping by much. Lots of us use the ammonia kit by API and are familiar with the colors. Would it be possible to take a picture of it next to the card?

Today I went to my local aquatics shop to ask for help as I figured they might be a better option than the large commercial pet shop that sold me the Stress Zyme. I took a water sample and the ammonia I used but the man didn't ask to see any of it. He just said I should empty the tank, refill it (without ammonia) and put my fish in ten days later.

My advice is not to ask them for advice anymore. I am not sure what they believe having a totally empty tank running for 10 days will do for you.

 

[Red_Ribbons]

Thank you so much for your reply Dalto! I will take your advice on not going to that particular fish store any more. Please find an image of my ammonia reading, I took it about ten minutes ago. (I did overdose a water specimen with ammonia before testing the tank to see what it looked like, that water specimen had nothing to do with the tank water, but I may well have got it wrong!).
Many thanks again.

 

[Red_Ribbons]

BTW I can pick up a Nitrate/ Nitrate test kit tomorrow.

 

[evil Nick]

Thank you so much for your reply Dalto! I will take your advice on not going to that particular fish store any more. Please find an image of my ammonia reading, I took it about ten minutes ago. (I did overdose a water specimen with ammonia before testing the tank to see what it looked like, that water specimen had nothing to do with the tank water, but I may well have got it wrong!).
Many thanks again.

I just finished my readings. Looked like nitrates just showed up but my ammonia is still hovering at four. My test was the same color as yours. I have so much trouble co.paring the colors

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[dalto]

Thank you so much for your reply Dalto! I will take your advice on not going to that particular fish store any more. Please find an image of my ammonia reading, I took it about ten minutes ago. (I did overdose a water specimen with ammonia before testing the tank to see what it looked like, that water specimen had nothing to do with the tank water, but I may well have got it wrong!).
Many thanks again.

Looks pretty close to 4ppm to me.

 

[Red_Ribbons]

Mines been like this for so long that this shade of green is definitely boring now. I will start testing for Nitrites/ Nitrates tomorrow. Let's hope that we may get another shade of green soon. It's comforting to know that it's not just my tank that has got stuck.

 

[Red_Ribbons]

If Nitrates show up should a water change be done? I read that you should wait for ammonia to reach zero and then redose the tank to 4ppm to ensure the bacteria can cope with the amount of waste which goldfish produce.

 

[dalto]

If nitrites or nitrates show up than you know the process is working. Just going slowly. If they don't, then you have an issue which we will need to try to figure out.

 

[Red_Ribbons]

I will test for them tomorrow and post the results. Thanks for the advice, it is good to know it's worth persevering.

 

[trennamw]

The guy at the fish store was just suggesting a fish-in cycle. There are those who believe it is ok for the fish with enough water changes, because with certain temp and pH ammonia can be at 1 and not be toxic.

That's a long story for another day. You're doing the right thing trying to go fishless.

You've already checked that the goldfish will be ok in that size tank correct? I don't know goldfish but they tend to need 30 gallons.

A cycle can go slowly. You may already know but it may speed up with a temp above 80, pH about 8, lots of oxygen, and a little phosphate. Getting some "dirty" media from someone else helps more than bottled stress zyme usually.

I believe Stress Coat slowed my bacteria colony from establishing since it has things in it besides dechlorinator but I could be really wrong. You can, however, get small bottles of plain dechlorinator without the slime coat enhancer. That's what I did to rule out variables.


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[Red_Ribbons]

You've already checked that the goldfish will be ok in that size tank correct? I don't know goldfish but they tend to need 30 gallons.

Yes, I think a goldfish would outgrow the tank but I figured I could get a bigger tank in time. I looked at smaller fish today (Danios and Platies) I have to do some homework on them though!

I tested for Nitrates and Nitrites. No nitrites but there were a lot of Nitrates which cheered me up. At least something is happening in there. Should I just leave the tank alone and be patient or do I need to do something to help the process? (Test result image for Nitrates is below).

Many Thanks

 

[PerfectDepth]

Yes, I think a goldfish would outgrow the tank but I figured I could get a bigger tank in time.

Sure, in a month or two!

You really should just get a bigger tank now if you really want a goldfish, it will be so much easier for you. You can get new filter to go with it and just add your current media to the new filter to continue your fishless cycle. Goldfish grow quickly, so it's going to be really hard to keep the water conditions healthy in such a small tank. 100L would be good for a single goldfish. Go a little larger if you want a pair.

Are you still adding ammonia, or has it just been sitting at 4 ppm?

 

[Red_Ribbons]

I think I'm going to put my goldfish idea on hold for now. I just found a second hand 10 gallon tank locally to me so I will go and have a look at that. I was researching small tanks this evening and was reading about cherry shrimp, they might be better in the tank I currently have, they look like quite interesting creatures too!

No ammonia has been added since the initial dose was put in. I'm quite glad it's taken ages, it's given me a good opportunity to think about who can live in it and stopped me from doing anything silly!

 

[trennamw]

You sure have a great attitude toward all this. So often the advice here gets ignored in favor of what we wish to be true (guilty).

A betta or a few tiny tiny fish could be good in the little tank. A 10 gallon offers a few more choices, but (while we are leading you toward a case of multiple tank syndrome) a 29 is where it starts to get easy to maintain and fun to stock.


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[Red_Ribbons]

Hahaha! Yes, I could see how people develop multiple tank syndrome! I was looking at bigger tanks and some of them are incredible. However, I'll wait until this one's cycled and established before starting another one- then I'll have some bacteria to start it with... I'll look at tiny fish- but I am quite looking forward to the cherry shrimp. I think I was at an advantage starting it on a whim- there were no preconceptions so I couldn't be disappointed.

 

[irdajoh]

4ppm is a lot for a small tank, I would do a large 60% change and dose to only 1 ppm. I did a fishless and dosing 4 was a lot so I just, lowered it. It took about 22 days to build the bio filter for me. As for adding quick start and stress stufd, that's not needed until fish are put in and your doing your pwc. Just condition your tap and dose to 1 and wait 2 days. The biggest skill in owning an aquarium is patients.

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[trennamw]

4ppm is a lot for a small tank, I would do a large 60% change and dose to only 1 ppm. I did a fishless and dosing 4 was a lot so I just, lowered it. It took about 22 days to build the bio filter for me. As for adding quick start and stress stufd, that's not needed until fish are put in and your doing your pwc. Just condition your tap and dose to 1 and wait 2 days. The biggest skill in owning an aquarium is patients.

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I'm not sure how the size of the tank has any bearing on the ppm you want to cycle. It's proportional ... Some say that a 4ppm dosing builds a bacteria colony big enough to stock 100% right away, while 2ppm makes it ready for more gradual stocking.

If anything, I'd say smaller tanks, which tend to push the stocking limits most, need the larger colony of bacteria before fish arrive.

There's no need to *ever* add quick start or stress zyme (both of which have bacteria). In theory they help now, when your tank is Uncycled, because they add bacteria. In reality it seems it's the wrong bacteria and in the end, the cycle often crashes. After your tank is cycled there's never a reason to add bottled bacteria, even with a water change, because they're already in the filter and gravel. Water changes don't remove bacteria.

What you'll want to do with water changes is add a dechlorinator, probably one that aids in slime coat, but that's it. There's API Stress Coat, Seachem Prime, and some others. I like Stress Coat because it has aloe instead of synthetic ingredients for slime coat. Aloe is also an anti inflammatory.


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[irdajoh]

I'm not sure how the size of the tank has any bearing on the ppm you want to cycle. It's proportional ... Some say that a 4ppm dosing builds a bacteria colony big enough to stock 100% right away, while 2ppm makes it ready for more gradual stocking.

If anything, I'd say smaller tanks, which tend to push the stocking limits most, need the larger colony of bacteria before fish arrive.

There's no need to *ever* add quick start or stress zyme (both of which have bacteria). In theory they help now, when your tank is Uncycled, because they add bacteria. In reality it seems it's the wrong bacteria and in the end, the cycle often crashes. After your tank is cycled there's never a reason to add bottled bacteria, even with a water change, because they're already in the filter and gravel. Water changes don't remove bacteria.

What you'll want to do with water changes is add a dechlorinator, probably one that aids in slime coat, but that's it. There's API Stress Coat, Seachem Prime, and some others. I like Stress Coat because it has aloe instead of synthetic ingredients for slime coat. Aloe is also an anti inflammatory.


Sent from my iPhone with three hands tied behind my back.

But if OP has been adding ammoina since September 18, theoretically he should be getting low ammoina test and high nitrites. But OP isn't, too much ammoina could stall the cycle and as you said smaller tanks it's easy to throw off. Wouldn't lower dosage push the cycle forward?

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[dalto]

I'm not sure how the size of the tank has any bearing on the ppm you want to cycle. It's proportional ... Some say that a 4ppm dosing builds a bacteria colony big enough to stock 100% right away, while 2ppm makes it ready for more gradual stocking.

If anything, I'd say smaller tanks, which tend to push the stocking limits most, need the larger colony of bacteria before fish arrive.

Honestly, I struggle with this logic. Even a heavily overstocked tank shouldn't produce 4ppm of ammonia per 24 hour period. 2ppm should be more than enough for virtually any situation. If someone has data to the contrary I would love to see it. For example, I currently have 10 4-5" Satanoperca in an uncycled 20g tank and they are producing less than 1ppm per 24 hours. That is a pretty grossly overstocked scenario.

There's no need to *ever* add quick start or stress zyme (both of which have bacteria). In theory they help now, when your tank is Uncycled, because they add bacteria. In reality it seems it's the wrong bacteria and in the end, the cycle often crashes. After your tank is cycled there's never a reason to add bottled bacteria, even with a water change, because they're already in the filter and gravel. Water changes don't remove bacteria.

All bottled bacteria is different, some are more effective than others. When you are referring to crashes are you thinking of Stability? The big problem with bottled bacteria is how it is handled. Unless you can be sure it was handled appropriately you often end up with a bottle of uselessness.

What you'll want to do with water changes is add a dechlorinator, probably one that aids in slime coat, but that's it. There's API Stress Coat, Seachem Prime, and some others. I like Stress Coat because it has aloe instead of synthetic ingredients for slime coat. Aloe is also an anti inflammatory.

Just out of curiousity, why do you think fish need added slime coat? Have you had fish that had issues do to an insufficient slime coat? My personal feeling is that the slime coat additives are more about product marketing than anything else. My South American tanks never get dechlorinator or any slime coat additive and I have not noticed any difference in the slime coat of the fish involved.