Can I use amquel to add fish immediately?

[Jeffs]

Hi,
I just got a 29 gallon biocube and just started adding alot of plants and water. Is it safe to add Kordon's Amquel and then add fish immediately? The back of the Amquel (NOT amquel +) states that it will not interfere with the biological cycle. So, if I use Amquel with ALOT of live plants to help keep the water clean, can I stock up my tank immediately? Just wondering if this is possible. Oh, I am also planning to do 30% water changes once or twice daily (thank you python!) just in case. Is this product trustworthy and does its job as claimed? Thank you for your advice!

[neilanh]

If you truelly do have a lot of plants, lots of fast growing stem plants, it is possible to do what's called a silent cycle. THis is when you have a heavy enough plant load that will consume the ammonia so that the levels never get toxic enough for fish. This is a bit more of an advanced method, so you'll need to consider for yourself if you're up for it.

It will require that you test daily and be willing to do daily water changes if necessary.

But, depending on your background, since you have another tank already that you can use for seed material, I'd recommend you do a fishless cycle first (see link in my signature). By having seed material already it will expedite the fishless cycle and ensure your tank is ready for fish and probably cause you a lot less frustration later.

The Amquel that you mentioned doesn't do anything special, it's simply a dechlorinator basically that does nothing to the cycle - your aquarium still has to go through it's cycle.

[bs6749]

What I would do is dose with Prime (by SeaChem) or Amquel if that's a similar product. I know that Prime will neutralize ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates into a form that is non-toxic to fish while it is still free to be consumed by the beneficial bacteria and your tank will still cycle.

I would set up the tank and test the water for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates several hours after it is setup with water and gravel, plants, and other decorations. Write down your initial readings (ppm's) of each of the three chemicals above. If necessary, dose Prime (if any amount of ammonia, etc. is present). You could then add fish IMO, provided that you maintain the water testing. I'd test every day and write down the ppm's of each. You should dose Prime at least every other day if anything is present. The plants should take care of most of the stuff though. You should also note that the neutralized compounds will still show up on the test kit even though they may be in the non-toxic form. That's why it'd be better to be safe and dose every other day at least. I wouldn't completely stock the tank in the first week but I wouldn't be afraid to add half of the fish you are planning on in the first day using this method. I've done this with discus before and never had any problems. Just make sure you keep up on the water quality and you'll be fine. One other thing I'd like to point out is that you won't need to do water changes every day or twice a day. I'd change (at most) 5 gallons out per week until it is cycled. This will ensure that there is enough ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates in the water for the cycle to reach completion. You may be doing more harm than good removing water from the tank. Another option would be to get some seeded filter media from someone and your tank would be instantly cycled.

[OldMan]

Trying to add fish to a brand new tank is an invitation to all the fun involved in doing a fish-in cycle. A statement that a chemical won't interfere with the normal cycle progress means that it does nothing to actually remove ammonia or nitrites. I could say the same thing about sodium hydroxide but I wouldn't want that in my tank whether it was cycled or not. The only truly effective "short cut" to adding fish without trouble is to clone a filter from a well established aquarium. Do not limit yourself to 30% water changes in doing a fish-in cycle. You must do whatever size and whatever number of partial water changes that are indicated by your chemical testing. Depending on the stocking that you use, you could be committing to doing 3 50% daily water changes. You do know it would be safe to use the dechlorinator because it says so right on it and the claim is not that it will magically cycle your tank but just that it won't prevent it.

[jsoong]

What you are proposing is basically a fishy cycle, except that you add an ammonia binder to help with your ammonia spike. Personally, I would not totally trust a binder. For one, it does not last forever (24 hrs in the case of Prime according to Seachem), so you have to redose with ot without water change. The typical ammonia kit will not tell you if the ammonia is bound or not, so you don't have a good way of telling if your ammonia is going to become unbound (& hence toxic).

If you have lots of plants & a tank to seed from, you can attempt a silent cycle. That IMO is far safer than relying on a chemical binder.

[bs6749]

It lasts for 24 hours meaning that the binder will be in the tank for 24 hours and then it will gas off if unable to bind, just as chlorine would do. This doesn't mean that whatever is bound will spontaneously release within a 24 hour time period. Atoms and molecules like to be at the "lowest energy form" and they won't spontaneously form a higher energy form/more reactive form. Having a binding agent takes the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates to a lower energy form. You could reverse the process and make the molecules unbound by increasing heat (a source of energy to allow the reaction to go in reverse) or you could change pressure (which would increase heat/thermal energy) among other things like addding a catalyst.

You are correct that the test kit will not show how much is actually "bound" (I also mentioned that) and recommended dosing every day to ensure that most of it WAS bound. You don't need 100% of it bound anyway for 95% of the fish/inverts available.

If you look at all the people that keep discus you will find that hardly any of them cycle the tank beforehand. This is because they go straight into a bare bottom QT tank with clean water and that is changed every at about 50% every 2 days. The cycle will eventually take place in a tank like that but it would be completed much sooner if greater amounts of "bound" (non-toxic form) waste chemicals were present. That's just my thought and something that has worked for me on some rather delicate fish.

Old man - why wouldn't you want NaOH in your tank? It'd be perfectly fine in an African Cichlid setup. It is a stong base and dissociates nearly 100% in water to form Na+ and OH- ions. The Na+ will have very litte effect on anything in the tank and the OH- will increase the pH, which African Cichlids prefer.

[Jeffs]

Thanks guys....I am currently doing a silent cycle I guess. I have success silent cycling my 8 gal and I bought lots of plants for my 29, hope it works. I also bought 4 freshwater clams to help keep my water clean and added 2 pouches of biospira for the extra bacteria. Does biospira really work or is it just plain BS?

[bs6749]

Biospira does work according to many discus enthusiasts!

[OldMan]

Biospira has a better reputation than most of the instant cycle products. It seems to work well enough if it has been properly cared for and kept refrigerated between manufacture and your use and if it is fairly freshly made.

[Jeffs]

Yep it does!! Look at my other thread...my tank's cycled!! in 4 days!! Don't know why people still bother waiting so long doing the fishless cycle.

[missileman]

I am doing a fishless cycle on a 75 gallon right now and using Bio-Spira.
After 4 days I am getting Nitrite and even very low levels of Nitrate.
I am very happy with the results so far.