Complete novice - Advice please

[Leigh]

After having bought the standard 10 gallon tank kit from a local store, we bought 5 goldfish and put them in. Yes, you guessed it 3 weeks later all the fish were dead. No, I didn't cycle the tank, because I didn't know you had to and the shop nor the accompanying booklets mentioned this. Furthermore, our water comes from well with an approximate ph value of 8.0-8.5.

So having read a lot more, I now realise that cycling a tank is a major part of the preparation. This is currently what I am doing. I was going to go the BioSpira route after reading about its success rate in this very forum but am keen to try the fishless cycling method purely for the experience.

My questions are: What fish could I put into water with ~pH8.0, secondly how many would you recommend?

Any advice would be welcome.

[astroguy]

I'd suggest a few male guppies. Add 1-2 cories and 1-2 otos.

[hisc1ay]

You can also buy chemicals that reduce (or raise) the pH level. They come in handy.

-j

[tkos]

I would stay clear of those up down chemicals unless you know alot about water chemistry. Plus well water with a ph that high is probably also pretty hard so those chems won't do that much excpet bring on algae (they contain phosphates).

I would suggest that your tank and water are perfect for live bearers. They like harder water. Just make sure to do a very slow acclimation when you put them in the tank as the water is probably very different from the fish store. If you like the goldish hues of goldfish then I would suggest getting either swordtails or platies. They are easy to find and have that great orange colour (plus others as well). Just make sure to get 2 females per male to stop any fighting. Live plants will also be great.

[ScottS]

I'd also steer clear of the Otos as they are rather sensitive.

There are several small fish to pick from that will work, though the qty and combinations vary by species, particularly for such a small tank.

Consider: Platy, Molly,Corydoras, Cherry Barbs, Pearl and Zebra Danios, and White Clouds would be the first place I looked for that tank and water.

[TheMadNucleus]

Tkos - right on the money.

If you want to keep fish that prefer lower PH there is hope. I agree with Tkos on the use of PH up and PH down, however there are some of these that do not contain phosphates. The PH down that does contain phosphates is based on phosphoric acid.

You could RO/DI the water from your well as this will likely remove alot of the buffering chemicals to which tkos makes reference (most notably Calcium, magnesium, various carbonates, and bicarbonates).

This may not change your PH right away but once things start going in the cycle (i.e. nitrates being produced - nitric acid) the PH will start to drop.

Then you will have a nice way of controlling PH at water change time - RO/DI water if the PH is to high, straight well water if it is too low.

Tom

[ScottS]

All the above is spot on, but I think for a first-timer, keeping it simple is better. Chemically altering a tank is always risky when it comes to keeping it stable. With a small tank like a ten, it's even harder to keep stable. There are several inexpensive, colorful, hardyy fish that will live in this tank,. so I really recommend against tinkering with the water.

[Leigh]

Thanks for all the advice.

I actually tried changing the pH value of the water using a "pH-down" product but after using gallons of the stuff, the water's alkalinity didn't budge. We have a water softening system installed in the house and the tank was filled with this soft water but the pH-down made no difference at all. I think I'll take ScottS's advice and keep things simple, until I'm more experienced.

tkos - You mentioned "live bearers." Could you explain what this means, please. Also, how would I slowly acclimatise them to the tank?

(Sorry for all the naive questions that you have probably answered hundreds of times before. I used the search function and answered several other questions I had)

[Allivymar]

Hiya Leigh and welcome to Aquariumadvice

You likely have very hard water as well as a high pH. Thats why the pH Down didn't work. Theres a great explanation of all that here: http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html

Live bearers are fish which have live births as opposed to laying eggs. Some of the live bearers were listed by Scott: platys, mollies. Do keep in mind, having live bearers means having babies! A 10g will get very crowded pretty quickly.

[Leigh]

Surely, having babies will only happen if I get a male and female together in the tank. (Or is there something else I don't know!) Would not all one sex be OK?

[Allivymar]

Heh usually yeah. The problem with live bearers is the females are able to "hold" sperm for a few months. You could get all females, and they could start laying a month after you bought them without ever seeing a male in your tank. And having all males can be tough, as they may go after each other (territoriality and just male aggression).

[Endgame319]

Yes all one sex would be ok, infact I reccomend it. Mixing sexes can really stress the females

With your chemistry I would say livebearers too. (Mollies, guppies, platys, and swordtails)

Acclimatizing the fish is VERY important. This is how I do it. I let the bag float in the water for 15 minutes, then I add some aquarium water(about 1/4th of what is currently in the bag), then I let it sit another 10 minutes, add more aquarium water, then repeat untill the bag volume had doubled. Then net the fish (unless it had spines which can get snagged in the net ) and set them free. DONT add the bag water into the tank.

[Leigh]

Is the sex of a fish easy to determine? I'm guessing the fish store may be able to differentiate when I acutally get around to buying some.

[foxtrot1027]

5 goldfish in a ten gallon is way too many. Goldfish can adapt to you water ph (7.0 to 8.0), however the ammonia in the tank probably killed them before it could cycle, the other suggestion is to get water from the aquapure machine at the grocery. Its only 25 cents here and has a ph of about 7 or so.

[Linsay]

Originally Posted by Endgame319

Acclimatizing the fish is VERY important. This is how I do it. I let the bag float in the water for 15 minutes, then I add some aquarium water(about 1/4th of what is currently in the bag), then I let it sit another 10 minutes, add more aquarium water, then repeat untill the bag volume had doubled. Then net the fish (unless it had spines which can get snagged in the net ) and set them free. DONT add the bag water into the tank.

Ok, I'm new to this so one of the more experienced fish keepers will have to comment, but if you add tank water with a high pH to a bag that a fish has been increasing the ammonia for at least half an hour aren't you at risk for killing the fish by making the ammonia more toxic?

I know that ammonia turns to ammonium at lower pH and reverts to ammonia at the higher pH. That combined with a stressed fish toileting in a small amount of water may make the addition of high pH deadly.
(I think)

Sigh - I think I need to go take an English course - I am having a hard time avoiding partial and run-on sentences!

[oscarbreeder]

This is the way I like to acclimate my fish.
I put the fish and the water from the bag in a 1 gallon bucket.
Take a piece of air line put 1 end into the main tank tie a small knot in it and put the other end in the 1 gallon bucket.
Let the water from your main tank slowly drip into the bucket with the fish.
By the time the bucket is about full your fish will be used to the water peramiters and the water temp.
HTH

Edit: I also use an air stone in the bucket.

[Allivymar]

You bring up a very good point Linsay; yes, that IS possible. However, ammonia levels won't rise that high in a half hour. I know of some folks who add their fish directly to avoid that issue, but usually its folks who have ordered fish, and the fish have been bagged for a long period of time. Its still taking a chance as sharp pH changes can be deadlier.

[Leigh]

Foxtrot, the reason I bought 5 goldfish was that the shop quoted the 1" per gallon rule and that a goldfish was gauged as a 2" fish.

How many fish would you recommend for a 10 gallon tank? I was looking at the list of fish ScottS quoted earlier in this thread (Platy, Molly,Corydoras, Cherry Barbs, Pearl and Zebra Danios, and White Clouds)

[Kwenbee]

Ya know...maybe it isn't Walmart that's the problem with our fish...I usually just float my fishies in the bag for about 20 minutes, then net them out of the bag and set them free.

Could it be that the stress of going from the bag in the store water to our occasionally eratic water (well, not now) is the problem? I never added tank water to the bag...never heard that before, so maybe my poor fishies are dying once again due to my own stupidity?

No deaths or even signs of problems since the last neon last week. Water is clear in 10 gallon and I'm doing the daily water changes for the 5. I am on a serious mission for 29 gallon for now (the 55 will come soon enough) to move our current 10 gallon residents into and then split the 10 for the bettas (feeling bad for Jake in his little home right now).

Just want to make sure I'm not stressing the poor little guys further...

[Allivymar]

Depends on the fish; mollies can get to be around 4-5 inches long, while white clouds top out around 2 inches. Then again, white clouds are schoolers and you'll need a minimum of 6, while mollies will be happier as a harem of one guy and 3 or so females.

I'd suggest a school of 6-8 cherry barbs, 3 corys, and maybe a dwarf gourami (the pH is a little high for them, but they are so domesticated now that they can do fine in that pH). That will pretty much cover the bioload as well as provide fish in the 3 levels of the tank (bottom, middle and top).