Cycle Backup?

[pkremer]

Hmmmm....when I set up my 10 gal QT tank about a week ago, I put a blue gourami in there and then squeezed the pads from my 38 into the 10 gal filter. 2 days later, I was reading 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 10 nitrate! Yay! I thought I was done.

3 days later, I checked again, and got what I felt was a strange result! Ammonia = .25 ppm, Nitrite = 0, Nitrate =10. I thought I had cycled already with nitrates showing up, but the ammonia is coming up now! By the way, I followed the instructions for setting up a QT/Hospital tank, 1 decoration, 1 fake plant, no gravel.

I have been doing daily 30-35% water changes for the last 3 days to make sure the ammonia doesn't get completely out of control, but last night again, the readings were identical to the one above. The gourami doesn't appear stressed, in fact, his colors are getting incredibly bright and wonderful! Last night, I used a plastic (clean) scoop to scoop some gravel out of my main tank and then sat it in the bottom of my 10 gal QT hoping to bring some more beneficial bacteria over.

Are there any ideas on how to speed this process on a bit more. Why was I reading no ammonia and some nitrates, and now the ammonia is coming back up with no added fish? Is 30-35% good for water change? I chose that number because I siphon out just to where the water level reaches the filter intake.

Also, how important is it that water temps for new water are identical? I always do a touch test to see if the new water is the same temp as the tank water, and it is never exactly the same, although it is close. Will this be stressful for him? If so, how can I make the water the same temp?

I appreciate any help very much! Thanks!
Paul

PS - What is the deal with these kudos? What are they?

 

[deli_conker]

It takes a while for the bacteria to actually colonize the tank. While this is happening, the bio-filter (good bacteria) has to catch up with the bio-load (fish/food waste). You are probably seeing that manifest as a "mini" cycle. It will correct itself as the two balance out.
Water changes are good for the fishes health but I don't know about doing any more than 25%.

I usually try to get my water within one degree of the tank by using a thermometer in the refill pitcher I use. The main thing is to have it close. Radical changes will stress fish.

 

[deli_conker]

Oh, I almost forgot...

You get kudos in three ways...

posting a message
other people posting to your thread
as a gift from others

They don't really do anything. They are more of an indicator to a person's activity on the site. If you post an interesting topic and lots of people reply, you get lots of kudos. If you give someone some really good advice, they may give you some of their kudos in a show of appreciation.

There are a few topics about this in the lounge. Just do a search for kudos and I'm sure you'll get lots of info...

 

[TankGirl]

I agree completely. Cut back just a tiny bit on how much water you change, but keep up with it and putting the gravel in there was exactly the thing to do. You are on the right track, and Kudos to you for using a quarrantine tank!

 

[pkremer]

Thanks a bunch! I only siphoned out 2.5 gallons tonight. We'll see how the water parameters are tomorrow morning.

I also have another question. I put one blue gourami in my QT tank all by himself. I don't know if fish are like humans, but is he bored? Every time I come into the room, he comes to the front of the glass to see me, and when he doesn't see me, he seems to be hovering in the same place all the time.

I guess I'm not completely concerned about him being bored (he'll only be in there another week or so), but will he develop any bad tendencies from being all alone in QT for 2 or 3 weeks? Becoming territorial, aggressive, etc?

Also, how long should I QT him? I bought him at Wal-Mart, so I figured 2-3 weeks, but 8 days after I bought him, he's not showing any signs of any disease. At 79 degrees, I would assume that ich would have gone through more than one life cycle, and he should have some spots by now if he was sick? I'll definitely hit the 2 week mark, but I'm beginning to wonder about 3....

Maybe I just hate to think of him in there all by himself...
Paul

 

[deli_conker]

Also, how long should I QT him? I bought him at Wal-Mart, so I figured 2-3 weeks, but 8 days after I bought him, he's not showing any signs of any disease.

A lot of people go up to 6 weeks in QT because some diseases take a while to show symptoms.

I've never had to deal with Ich personally, but here is a really good article about it...
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=32

but is he bored? Every time I come into the room, he comes to the front of the glass to see me, and when he doesn't see me, he seems to be hovering in the same place all the time.

Who knows? He probably comes to the glass to see you because he thinks you have food. As far as the hovering; it could be that he's sick (hope not) or maybe he's just waiting for a bigger place to swim in. Hard to know for sure...

 

[TankGirl]

Yes, it is probably a different circumstance for him to be alone in a tank, and he will get used to it for now, but no harm will be done, and it is just so worth it to have him in QT for a time. Soon enough he will be out of "jail" and all will be well. I would keep him there a minimum of 4 weeks, like deli_conker said, 6 weeks would be better. If there is one thing this hobby teaches, it is patience, LOL!

 

[pkremer]

Thanks for your advice!

Can someone please help me to understand a mini-cycle? I tested water again (have been doing daily 25% water changes) tonight, and found another rise in ammonia up to .5 ppm!!! Nitrites have stayed at zero, and nitrates are up another notch, probably around 15 ppm. I am worried about not being able to get the ammonia down and have my gourami in there with too much ammonia when I have a completely cycled tank with perfect water less than 5 feet away.

Why are my nitrates continuing to come up when the ammonia is still rising and through daily water changes? Is it that there are some ammonia eating bacteria, and then enough nitrite eating bacteria to eat their waste? I don't have enough ammonia eating bacteria right now, and they still have to reproduce? Is that a mini-cycle?

I am halfways tempted to ditch this Aqua-Tech filter and go get a Penguin-Mini with a biowheel, but I don't know for sure if that will help. My gourami is getting so used to daily water changes now that when he sees the big yellow bucket he goes over behind the fake driftwood and watches.

Paul

 

[deli_conker]

Hypothetical mini-cycle:

The tank is cycled.
Let's say that you have enough bacteria to support 5 fish.

You then add 5 more fish.
The ammonia starts to rise as the new inhabitants add to the bio-load.
It does so because the ammonia eating bacteria can't eat it as fast as it is being produced.

Ammonia levels rise noticeably in the tank. As more ammonia is available to the bacteria they start to reproduce to balance the influx of it.

This also happens for nitrItes as well.

Your tank is cycling again (in a fashion) but does so rather quickly as the bacteria already exist and just need to reproduce to handle the increased bio load. It's more like "catching up to the bio load" rather than cycling, but most people call it a mini-cycle anyways because that is what it most resembles.

NitrAtes will alway be on the rise as long as the tank is cycled and ammonia is being added to the tank (food/waste). If the tank is already cycled then it is just a small matter of time before it catches up with the bio load.

I doubt if one gourami is going to produce a mini-cycle in your other tank. He's just not going to increase your bioload by that much. What's going on in your QT tank is a real cycle though. Just keep up with the water changes and if you have media or gravel from your other tank that you can spare it will go a lot faster.

 

[Menagerie]

Add the media or gravel to the filter.
Kudos to you, deli_conker, for the nice explanation!

 

[krap101]

yeah i use the thermometer method too. i put it a little higher on my tank then last time so i ususally go down to like 82 degrees

 

[pkremer]

OK, once again, I continue to struggle with this cycle! I keep thinking I am done, and then something new and interesting happens.

I thought the tank was cycled, and added 4 small killifish to my 10 gallon tank. If these guys are even 1/2 inch, that might be pushing it. A test later though is now showing a slight rise in ammonia (which I expected) and now nitrites, which I have never even had register, are showing up in force! It has reached just above .5 on the scale, which reads "caution" on my test kit.

I thought that because I put a couple scoops of gravel inside a cut up pair of panty hose and then placed that inside the filter, this would put the nitrite eating bacteria in there. And since nitrates were showing up with no nitrites, I assumed the tank had cycled.

The oto's are still alive, so I am assuming the water is not outrageously bad, but I don't want my fish to be living in this. I thought that this was done...

Should I just keep up with my regimen of daily 25% water changes, or do 2 a day? Is that too many? I'm just not sure why this is taking so long when I have media from an established tank I have brought over. I'm in my 3rd week now.

Paul

 

[TankGirl]

It is just going to take a while for the bacteria that you need to get established in there, and the addition of the killies pushed something over the edge - there was just not enough denitrifying bacteria present, for whatever reason. Be sure you are not overfeeding, and do the daily partial water changes - two a day would probably be too much. You will get there, and the question is just keeping the fish happy until then.

I know this is frustrating!! When all of this is done, is there any way to run the 10-gal filter on your 38 when you do not have any fish in QT? That way the entire filter will be loaded up and ready to go when you need to put someone in QT or to medicate them.

 

[pkremer]

Well, I have been doing daily water changes since day 1 to keep my parameters under control. Last night unfortunately, I had to work until 1 am and was too tired when I got back to do my daily water change.

I wake up this morning and 1 of my killifish is having difficulty avoiding the filter intake. He finally did get away, but I panicked and tested the water. Ammonia was heartening, 0!!! For the first time since I thought I was cycled and added more fish! Unfortunately, the second I did the nitrate test, it started going pink instantly, NOOO!

It finally stopped at just over 3 ppm!!! I quickly did my water change, I figure that will bring it down to around 2, which is still too high... I am starting to get concerned, this is the first day the fish have actually showed any signs of stress (even though just one). They have not been in QT for long enough, and I am concerned about my gourami stressing them out if I put them in the 38, but they aren't going to last long in my nitrite paradise either if I can't get this taken care of.

Any ideas? I know that eventually the nitrites will go down, but I feel sorry for my fish while this happens...

Paul

 

[deli_conker]

You're not cycled until ammonia and nitrItes are at 0 and you see nitrAtes climbing.

Just keep doing small water changes. Do 2 small ones (10-15%) a day if you have to. Doing the water changes will increase the chance that your fish will survive but will also slow the cycle down a little.

You probably should do all tests before you add any fish. You also need to keep in mind that adding fish adds to the bio-load. This means that you'll have an influx of ammonia/nitrItes while the bio-filter catches up with the amount of ammonia/nitrItes being produced.

You could also move the fish to a temporary home while the tank finishes.

This is why I advocate fishless cycling. You still have to cycle your tank, but you aren't going to lose any stock in the process...

 

[TankGirl]

Nitrite poisoning is what is happening here and salt will help the fish (I am assuming killies can tolerate the treatment) and would recommend one tablespoon of aquarium salt per 10gals. Meanwhile the only thing to do is either put them in a cycled tank, which kindof defeats the purpose of quarrantine but will hopefully save the killies (you could put a divider up if you are concerned about the gourami) or soldier on with the water changes.

Sorry for all of this trouble!

 

[pkremer]

This is exactly why I am frustrated, deli_conker, I thought that I had successfully cycled it. I was reading 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 10 nitrate when I added the fish. The oto's went in just fine and were surviving, then the killies went in and BAM! A very slight ammonia spike followed by my miserable nitrite mess. Even with my current 3 nitrite, I am still reading 10-20 nitrates.

All 4 fish are active and seem happy now after work. I might siphon off a gallon later tonight and then another 25% water change after work tomorrow.

If I can't get the nitrites down, I may have to put them in the 38 until I can get this 10 gallon cycled finally, but I'll see what I can do. I don't look forward to having to fish anyone out from that 38 to put them back in the 10...I'd probably have to remove all the decorations to even get a shot at them!

I have some aquarium salt, I will add a tablespoon.

Paul

 

[pkremer]

OK, I have added the salt with some interesting results.

First of all, I took a 12 oz glass of dechlorinated water, and put a tablespoon of salt in it. I then stirred and stirred until the salt had completely dissolved, and then poured it slowly all over the surface of the water.

The killifish just a few minutes later have become extremely active, scooting all over the tank. However, it does not appear to be stress. It looks as though they are just all of the sudden energized. Even the littlest one who hasn't been eating much seems to be moving around now.

I am curious what the salt does for the fish? I will continue to watch them and for every 2.5 gallon water change, will add and dissolve 1/4 tablespoon of salt into the new water. If I can't get the nitrite down over the next several days, I am considering getting a breeder box (which I can use for my swordtails anyway) and putting them in my 38. That way they will have good water and will be safe from my gourami (even though he might leave them alone, I'm not willing to take the chance).

Paul

 

[Menagerie]

Your 38 is cycled and established?? Take some of the media or a squeezing from that filter and put it in the twn gal filter.

I am curious what the salt does for the fish?

I forget, but I know nitrites will suffocate the fish and the salt gets in there and hocus+pocus=fish breathing

 

[TankGirl]

If your larger established tank has a biowheel filter, then just toss the biowheel into the Q-tank and that should help a lot, or like Menagerie said, use filter squeezings, filter media, a decoration, some gravel - anything.