Cycle levels ... The Pond's progress

[renosteinke]

My earlier thread "Is River Water Better" was getting a bit long, and way off the original topic .... so I thought it best to post my updates in a new thread.

For a summary, I am setting up an unheated indoor pond - just a bit different from the typical aquarium. The pond holds 35 gallons. Current population is 5 goldfish and 4 water hyacinth plants. The goldfish are not quite sardine size; and, yes, they've grown since I bought them!

I have been waiting patiently for the "cycle" to get started. Well, it looks like it has! Came home yesterday to VERY cloudy water - water that had been clear up till then. I measured radical changes in the water tests ... most notably, the nitrites and nitrates had disappeared, and the ammonia had doubled.

As luck would have it, I had just returned from the area's "premier" fish shop. So, I had the "AmQuel" to treat the water I needed for an immediate 50% water change. I also learned that we do treat the water here with chloramines.

Fish appear healthy and lively. Plants seem to be getting a little blacker every day. Water details, as just measured, are:
pH: 6.8
Ammonia: 4ppm
Nitrites: 5ppm
Nitrates: 0
GH: 90
KH: 30
Temp: 64F
Clarity: Very cloudy (10" deep, can see that there is gravel, but not individual pieces.)

 

[Zagz]

With fish in there you should do a water change. The ammonia and nitrite levels are too high for the fish to remain fine for very long. When doing a fish cycle, you have to keep ammonia and nitrite as close to 0ppm as possible.

 

[Regen311]

I agree. Is that 4ppm AFTER you did a 50% water change? How often are you doing water changes now?

 

[renosteinke]

Yes, that was 4ppm after the water change. I had been measuring 2-4ppm for a few days .... when I had this sudden spike.

Last night the ammonia had again begun to climb past 4ppm; I just did a 65% water change, and removed the plants. The plants seemed to get a wee bit worse every day, and dead plant matter may have beed making all that ammonia.

In a similar manner, I have cut back on the feeding; I may have been using too much.

These water changes were performed with the use of AmQuel; I am curious if this ammonia 'neutralizer' interferes with test results. I certainly do not see any immediate drop in the ammonia after adding it - though the fish seem to be OK.

 

[renosteinke]

Since I did several things at once, I cannot say exactly what was effective.

In any event, ammonia level is now at the bottom of the scale. I suspect that the plants were making the ammonia as they died.

I am in the process of adding an additional filter, a canister that allows me to use zeolite if the problem returns.

 

[renosteinke]

Some Pics

Some folks here have been quite helpful in getting my project started. I thought I'd post a pic of where I want to go, as well as where I am right now.

The first pic is the fountain that inspired me. Water flows down the side of the pillar, without any splashing noise, into the moat. I saw this, and thought "why not have fish too?".

The next pic is what I now have. I have not made the pillar as yet. I will replace the goldfish once the cycle has stabilized.

 

[travis simonson]

Are you currently using any sort of bio-filtration on this tank?

 

[MyCatsDrool]

why did you get the goldfish if you don't intend to keep them? Would you use a dog and discard it once you had whatever you wanted accomplished with it, only to get a fancier dog?

When you bring an animal home, isn't it something of an unspoken agreement that you will now be responsible for your new PET until it expires, and will do everything you can to make it's life happy?

At least, that was what I thought. I guess I am odd, for not distinguishing between scales and fur.

Sorry for the diatribe, but I am a bit frustrated with this line of thinking, and that you are flat out ignoring most help until you realize it is too late, then decide to take advice retroactively.

Again

/simply shakes her head.

Go back and read your previous thread. You started with 10 goldfish. Helpless, defenseless goldfish, and SIX are already gone. Is that because you refused to hear people?

So, in an effort to help, get the filter sooner than later. If you don't intend to keep these goldfish, take them back to the store TODAY (do not pass go, do not collect $200), and do a fishless cycle with some raw shrimp. Wait. Stop rushing everything. I don't think you realize these are not ornaments, they are LIVING, FEELING, PETS.

Then, when your cycle is complete, get some golden white cloud minnows. About 10-15 for your size tank, or two fancy golds. No more. 35 gallons will not handle much more than that, and those are the fish you can keep in 64 degree water (albeit, that is even a bit chill for them). MAYBE consider a hillstream loach. A SMALL one.

 

[LandGhoti]

If AmQuel is anything like AmmoLock, it neutralizes SOME of the ammonia but that will still show up when you test the water. The only way to effectively remove ammonia is by doing water changes, and giant ones if it's as high as yours.

Yes, decaying anything will produce some ammonia. However, fish produce ammonia by their respiration and elimination. So, removing the plants is not going to help, sorry. Plus, goldfish are huge waste machines so the ammonia output is higher than what you might see with other fish.

You for sure need a filter.

And as far as the lecture by MyCatsDrool:
I second all of it.

 

[MyCatsDrool]

FWIW:

IF the remaining goldfish you plan to return survive the extreme levels of Ammonia they have already faced, they will get introduced to a whole new toxin in the next few weeks at deadly levels, NitrIte. Imagine, spending your whole day for 2-3 weeks emersed in a nice, diluted solution of Ammonia.

Now, like your fish, so hardy as you proclaim (i beg to differ, Koi, same family as the carp you described in your other thread, which are also, goldfish, are often priced in the $1000s of dollars, because of their beauty, personas, and delicate nature), will get to endure a whole new toxicity...NitrIte...
Something like me gradually removing your ammonia pool, and adding in gasoline instead. Diluted, albeit. You will probably survive. With scars. With respiratory problems, since, as fish, they breathe all that ammonia and gasoline.

Now finally, I get some fresh air. They get some quality, cycled water. I know I would be scarred. Traumatized. Angry that my provider refused advice until I started dying off, or displaying signs of poisoning. Then, I get tossed back to the fish store...Discarded. Damaged. Likely not to survive, for someone else to do exactly the same thing to me.

THIS is why people preach research, fishless or light stock cycling. THIS is why people in your last thread were hard on you. This is why people are hard on you period.

I wrote an article here about what to do when you don't bother taking advice or researching how to care for your pets. It is in reference to fish getting ich mid cycle, due to lack of knowledge.

It is mostly written for those who come here and already have an issue because no one has told them. You, on the other hand, have been told all along how to do this right. I suggest you start planning ahead. And stop thinking of fish as another cool part of your indoor fountain.

DISCLAIMER.

I am sorry if you are taking what i am saying here personal. I am also sorry to anyone else this offends. But this is how I feel. And how many others I am sure feel, about people who abuse animals, even "lowly" fish. If i get banned or deleted for it, so be it. I am just blunt about stating the facts, and saying what it must be like. Yes, i realize many disagree and think fish don't feel the effects of a bad owner, and that they don't outgrow their glass cages, and that i could be "more tactful". And lastly, i understand that my lack of tact will probably get me in trouble.

I don't want you to quit the hobby or give up your fountain, I just want you to slow down, and do some research. Have a fish come into a tank frightened, and within a day be coming to the glass to give you glass kisses or eat from your hand. Sounds corny, right? Well, try it. Then imagine subjecting them to this. Then you will know where I am coming from.

Again, sorry for my harshness.

 

[renosteinke]

I appreciate the responses!

The rectangular "brick" you see under the fountain is a filter. It is 'powered' by the fountain pump. It has both mechanical and biological filter media. I have also added a canister filter, both for the ability to chemically filter the water ( activated carbon or zeolite), and for the role it will play in the developing design.

One of the purposes of the plants is to consume the nitrites.

I am looking to develop this into a small example of the midwestern farm pond ... with plants and fish to match. To do so, I have many challenges to meet.

I started with goldfish for two main reasons: they are cheap, and tough. I need something to get things started - and my choice of cold water fish is limited. Until I have a stable system, I see no point in spending serious money on exotic fish. Also, goldfish are consistent with the plan ... being a form of carp. I certainly do not intend to deliberately kill them. (Of course, my cats may have a different opinio if the fish get too big )

As far as casualties are concerned ... while I paid for 10, I believe I only received 9. I have had 3 die. 6 remain. Due to the plants, it was only by nearly draining the pond (when I did a major water change) that I was able to get an accurate count.

I do not take any responses personally, or feel anyone is being "hard." If nothing else, I like the open dialog that the internet fosters. I return the favor by being honest.

Not only do I describe my decisions - even when they might not be what someone wants to hear - but I freely admit my ignorance. One thing about asking advice, though, is that there is always an entire range of well-meaning, and often quite competent, advice offered.

All I can do is ask, listen, and decide. In the end, the decision, and responsibility, is mine alone. Now, sometimes a person will get all upset that I did not take their advice as gospel ... well, that is beyond my control. It is very possible that the advice was contradicted by others, or was not relevant to my project at that time.

Which brings us back to the pictures .... I thought that, perhaps, advice might be more accurate if folks had a better idea as to where I plan to go with this - especially since my plan is somewhat different from the usual bookshelf tank!

 

[MyCatsDrool]

Hey, man, I gotta hand you some props for how you handled my advice. Very mature, and responsible and level headed.

 

[Regen311]

I guess my problem is that I"m not completely understanding your vision. You say you want to have a "midwestern farm pond" type thing when all is said and done, complete with plants and fish... yet you chose only a 30 gallon "pond?" I'm more confused now that I look at that picture. The fountain looks like it takes up well over 50% of that pond, brining you down to about 15 gallons. Granted, a 15 gallon aquarium is fine to house white clouds, and plants, but this will be nothing like a midwest farm pond... also, 15 gallons isn about enough for 1 goldfish, not two. So I don't think going with goldfish is a great idea, the white clouds seem like they'd be fine though.

I'm also a little concerned about you not having a heater in there. Because that fountain is so large, it creates a ton of surface area, which means a ton of heat transfer with the surrounding air. This means that if the temperature in that room fluctuates at all throughout the day, it will have a huge impact on the temperature of the pond. A very cheap heater would solve that problem. I think people generally think of heaters as "heating up" cold water for tropical fish, but they can also be used in a coldwater tank to keep the water temperature stable, which will be better for your fish in the long run. As I said, the great surface area you have will lead to greater fluctuations in temperature than a regular "rectangular" tank would have.

And finally, how often are you doing water changes as the cycle progresses? I know this has been stressed multiple times, but any time ammonia or nitrites get above .5 ppm you need to be doing a water change. It's vital. Even after your tank has gotten going, even with the plants, since this is such a small pool, you're never going to have a fully functional, natural, biological filtration system. Weekly water changes are probably going to be necessary for as long as you have this pond in your home, and not just "topping the water off". You're going to be needing to take out a significant ammount of that water and replacing it.

This whole idea, can, obviously, work, and be a pretty cool thing, just hope you realize it's still going to require quite a bit of work, even after it is established.

 

[renosteinke]

The first attempt at plants,, using water hyacinths, failed. The best guess is that there simply was not enough light.

I have added different plants, ones that are claimed to be OK for partial shade. Water lettuce, marigold, and some grasses. While the lettuce is a floater, the others are 'margin' plants, with just the roots/ dirt in the water.

The fish have also changed in their behavior. Rather than maintain a steady rate of activity, they will have clearly 'quiet' and 'active' periods. When active, it is simply amazing how fast they can dart around the basin.

Various pillar designs are being evaluated. My desire that the water flow be quiet, and that the water not break up into narrow streams, is not easy to achieve.

For all the money I've spent on water testing, is still seems that the best test is performed by the family cat. If he will drink the water, the levels are right where they belong!

 

[7Enigma]

renosteinke,

Please do not use your cat as the basis for whether the water is safe for your fish. You have a test kit, and you have fish in the tank, use the kit please.

You need to find what your base level is for your tap water. You mentioned your tap has chloramines in it, which will throw off the ammonia test. Here's what I would recommend:

-take a gallon of tap water and add the appropriate amount of your dechlorinator. Mix it well and let it sit for 30min or so. Take an ammonia, nitrIte, and nitrAte test of this water and write it down.

The values you get from this test are your "zero" levels. If you read 2ppm ammonia, you will now know that if your tank shows 2ppm ammonia you really have very little or no ammonia.

Chloramines make it tough for people cycling because they never see that 0ppm level. It's just not possible when your tap water contains chloramines.

So please, PLEASE, test your water and do the appropriate water changes. You are currently far overstocked and still heavily in the cycle.

I would also second the recommendation for the heater. Measure the tank temp during the warmest part of the day (normally around 5pm or so). Get a proper heater (don't know if there are coldwater heaters, but I'm sure there are) and set it for 1 degree above the warmest part of the day. Now your "tank" will stay at a relatively constant temperature at all times.

Temperature swings, on top of the high ammonia/nitrIte levels are very stressful and can allow disease and infection to occur.

 

[renosteinke]

Thank you, enigma. I was not aware of the testing problems you mention, and I will check that out tonight.

My comment about the cats drinking the water was meant more as an observation than a 'test method.' Testing does continue. FWIW, test levels (without correction) seem stable at perhaps 1 ppm ammonia, and traces of the other two.

The pond sits on the floor, and shows very little temperature fluctuation - at least on a daily level. Our recent warm spell did result is a slight rise .... but the temps have remained in the low 60's. (Some of the variation may be caused by using different thermometers).

As an ongoing project, I am seriously considering raising the pond to 'coffee table' height. I have also a design, yet to be constructed, for that pillar / waterfall.

Heater? Much as I try to resist this idea, I may end up using one. I've been quite surprised to encounter problems getting the fish I want - seems Fish & Game has some issues there - and I've been intrigued by some of the things the LFS does have!

Since this is an open top design, evaporation is much more of an issue than it would be with the usual covered aquarium. Using a heater will likely make that even more of an issue.

Overcrowding? Perhaps; yet this is the one area where the 'aquarium' people and the 'pond' people have very different opinions. I am well under the 'pond peoples' advice, and suspect the relatively heavy plant loading ponds have may account for the heavier loading.

All I can do is watch my levels, and the behavior of every part in this "puzzle."

 

[7Enigma]

Due to the open top design I would argue even more for the need of a heater. I didn't mean to use the heater to increase the temp over the normal conditions in your house, I meant for stability at night and on slight temp fluctuations during the day. Under low humidity conditions and a cold night you can drastically fluctuate to lower temperatures. Having a heater somewhere in the pond could lessen the swing. You could even isolate the heater in a low flow area to give a warm area that your fish can "choose" to go in the case of a colder night. When I've neglected a trim I can get some dead spots in my tank even with the CO2 PH and HOB filter, your heavily planted pond could also have these spots where you could locally maintain a constant temperature without causing increased evaporation.

 

[renosteinke]

Enigma, I had not considered a local 'warm spot.' It's an interesting idea, and I shall consider it!

 

[renosteinke]

Latest progress report

It's been a while since I posted on this project. The time has not been wasted.

I made the table / platform for the pond, and constructed the waterfall. I made an under-gravel filter. I obtained new plants, and think I have a better lighting arrangement.

The only weak spot, so far, is that the pump I have is inadequate for the waterfall. That part still needs some work. In the meantime, I have added an aerator ... the fish were not getting enough oxygen unless the fountain was running, and the fountain had some splashing / noise issues.

The marigold I placed in the pond withered away, one leaf at a time ... then new sprouts popped up. It looks as if it will work. I have marigold and grass as 'marginal' plants, and have added three submerged plants. My water lettuce might survive ... the prior filter stripped the roots from it.

I still have the six goldfish. I have also added a channel catfish (about 2" long) and a betta. So far, so good. The base of the waterfall provides plenty of hiding places, which the betta in particular enjoys.

I have added a heater ... as was suggested ... and am keeping the pond at 70 right now.

Ammonia and nitrate levels seem to be stable, and the fish are healthy and vigorous.

I should have some pics within a week.

Main 'lesson learned' so far? That even a canister filter has little pressure, and will not pump water very high. The waterfall will need a dedicated pump.

 

[Regen311]

Re: Latest progress report

I still have the six goldfish. I have also added a channel catfish (about 2" long) and a betta.

Are you planning on eating the channel catfish in a few months when it gets huge? Hopefully you find a new home for it in a few months when it gets big and starts eating your other fish... anything that will fit in its mouth... if fish start to disappear at night, he's your culprit.