Cycling Trouble

[frankjr]

Hi all!

I have a 29 gal tank with HOB 160 gph filver that has been up for about 19 days. I'm having trouble getting the tank to cycle for the first time. Here are the water stats:

NO3 20
NO2 0.5
GH 150
KH 120
pH 7.8
NH3/NH4 0.25
Temp 78

I have 1 sword, 2 mollies, and 5 neons in the tank. As NO2 and NH3/NH4 begin to rise to about 1.0 or 0.5 respectively (beginning of stress on my test strips) I've been doing a 25% water change about every other day. I haven't changed the filter media yet, though I did vacuum a bit during one of the water changes.

1. Am I doing anything wrong? Should I be letting NO2 and NH3/NH4 go higher before water changing?

2. I have a 5 gal quarantine tank (no gravel just the tank). Could I put the fish in the 5 gal and fishless cycle the 29 gal the rest of the way then move them back to expedite or am I better off trying to naturally cycle the 29 gal?

Also, the water is very slightly cloudy, what's causing this?

Thanks!

Jeff


Jeff

[Menagerie]

[center:1f3c4a8ed2] Welcome to AA, frankjr! [/center:1f3c4a8ed2]

Also, the water is very slightly cloudy, what's causing this?

That is normal for a new tank.

Since you have started cycling with fish, I would continue. The tank is getting there. Do not vacuum the tank for awhile--that will help bring up the ammonia. Mollies and swords are pretty hardy. The neons are not--you may want to move them to the 5 gal and do PWC every other day for them. Of course that drops the bioload down Is there anyone you know with an established tank? You could get some filter media from them and instantly cycle your tank.

[TomK2]

Just curious, how much nitrate is in your tap water?

Since you have nitrate at 20 ppm, unless your tap water has high nitrate, you are already well on your way to having a functional biofilter. You might want to invest about $15 in a FW master test kit with the liquid reagents, it will be more accurate that the test strips.

I would keep doing the water changes to make the ammonia and nitrite easier on your fish. You do not have to have high ammonia levels to establish a biofilter, but it might make it go faster. That is why many would advise against a gravel vac at this stage, since it would lower the levels. However, if you are willing to do water changes to help your fish, why not a light gravel vac too? Removing stuff from the bottom of the tank will lower the ammonia load, but unless you seriously disrupt the gravel I don't think any nitrifying bacteria in it would be harmed.

Now, if your tap water doesn't have high nitrates, you already have the required bacteria, thats where the 20ppm nitrate came from. Therefore, your biofilter is just trying to catch up with what is already in the tank. I would water change and light gravel vac to ease the nitrogen load on the system. Remember, even if this does slow down biofilter developement, it will not stop it. 19 days is not all that long to establish a biofilter, I just finished one that took 40 days! So get some of the ammonia out of the tank for the fish's sake, and let the biofilter take more time to develope. Don't feel too bad about the ammonia and nitrite you have now, NH3 of 0.25 and NO2 of 0.5 is pretty tame by New Tank Syndrome standards, but you can lower it without fear of stopping biofilter developement. HTH

[Ginafish]

I was wondering this same question. I've been cycling all this week fishless. My reading didn't change at all. So last night I added in some more of the bacteria and today, the ammonia looks like it dropped a bit from 6 to 4ppm. (Note: I was estimating 6ppm this week b/c the color chart in my kit goes from 4 to 8ppm and the color was in between the two shades.) The nitrates and nitrites are at zero. I am hoping to see another change tomorrow. It just seems like everyone else is getting some sort of reading change much sooner than I am.

[Ginafish]

Tested this morning and no changes...ammonia at 4ppm and nitrites zero.

[Menagerie]

I don't think the bacteria in a bottle is doing anything for you and the entire cycle will take 4-8 weeks. If you know someone with an established tank, then you will be able to cycle quickly.

[Ginafish]

Unfortunately I don't. I'll wait and see what happens this week. If still no changes, I think I'll do a water change and maybe try cycling with a few fish. I don't want to wait 4 weeks.

[Ginafish]

Okay I did a water change today...about 2/3 of the tank. It lowered the ammonia down to 2ppm. I am thinking that being at 6ppm was too high and perhaps any bacteria that was in there (naturally or from the bottle) couldn't handle it. Hopefully this week I'll see SOME sort of nitrites. If not, I'm going to do what I've done in the past and cycle with a few fish. I know it's not preferred but my tank seems stalled for some reason.

[TomK2]

Patience Ginafish. It will get there. 6ppm of ammonia won't slow down the nitrosomas bacteria, they just need a week or two to catch up, then you will see some nitrites. The nitrobacter will then need a week or two to catch up, then you will have nitrates, and be ready for fish.

However, I totally understand your desire to have something more that a giant square test tube to look at for the next few weeks. If you decide to change to fish, remember to change out all the water - is it fair to make them live in ammonia they didn't even create? Lightly stock the tank, and be patient. Cycling with fish is not any faster, is probably slower, but its just that you have something to look at while you wait. If you stock low enough (say one danio or platy or fewer per 5 gallons) you might even be able to establish a biofilter without getting high ammonia levels at all - in 6 or 7 weeks!

I commend you for starting a fishless cycle, and want to encourage you to hang in there! You can do it!

[Ginafish]

Thanks Tom. I'm trying to have patience. You know how you get all excited and you test everyday and after a week nothing happens, and you're like LOL
I'm planning on letting it be for a bit. Do you think I messed up the nitrosomas by lowering the ammonia? I didn't touch any gravel when I changed the water.
And no, if I were to put fish in there, I would definitely drain the whole tank. I would never put fish in there with those ammonia levels. My thoughts were...if I did do it with fish...basically have to start over with the water...and then put in like 4 danios in the 45 gallons. But I'm going to wait on this and try it without fish.

[TomK2]

You know how you get all excited and you test everyday and after a week nothing happens,

I know. I know. The thing is, what you are doing now IS the fastest overall way to do it. I just established a biofilter with danios and platies, stocked low, I never got an ammonia or nitrite reading in 40 days! Thats a lot of negative testing. Then on day 40 I had nitrates, so I knew my efforts had payed off. What made it bearable was that I had fish to look at!

Do you think I messed up the nitrosomas by lowering the ammonia?

Absolutely not! More ammonia equals faster nitrosomas developement, but no one has ever done a "dose response curve" to show how fast any particular level is compared to another. Maybe 2ppm is just as good as 6ppm? We don't know. Anyway, if I could get nitrates in 40 days with the level staying below 0.25 (my kits lower test limit), you WILL get them at 2ppm ! If you are having second thoughts, just add some more ammonia. 6ppm won't harm the nitrosomas, so you can go back to it if you want. Hang in there! You know how to establish a biofilter with fish, but now you are experimenting with fishless cycling. You are gaining valuable experience.

[FancyGuppyGuy]

Let it GO! No you didnt hurt anything by changing alittle water you just made it take longer

simple as that. if you cannot seed its going to take longer than some one who seeds there tank.

Leave the ammonia at 5-6 PPM this is what causes the bacteria to bloom. It will go down Then your Nitrites will go up just like the ammonia. and they too will do down. All of this could take a few weeks to happen.

When your ammonia does drop down to 0 you will still have to add ammonia until the end of the cycle to feed the bacteria.

[Ginafish]

LOL...thanks guys. I can feel your "cheerleading". I'm letting it go.
The reason I did lower the ammonia with the water change was because I spent ALOT of time reading all those sites you guys gave me on fishless cycling. Many of them said to keep the ammonia around 2-4ppm, and another said having too high ammonia could actually stall the process. I guess I was on information OVERLOAD in trying to research as much as possible so I could learn. And with some information being a bit contradictory....it's hard to know what to follow. So I'll leave it be. If it looks like it's dropping I'll add a bit more in there.
I KNOW I'm doing the right thing....but it's hard when a coworker of mine just got a new tank, stocked it with fish, and everything's "fine". I did refer her to this site. Only time will tell I guess.

[Ginafish]

I have readings! I have readings!! I have nitrites AND nitrates!
Thank you thank you thank you everyone for helping me patient!! I can't believe it! I thought it would be longer!! I had a long hard day at work and I came home, tested and BOOM! Readings!!!
pH 7.0
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrites 0.5
Nitrates 5.0

So I should see a spike in nitrites eventually right? And then it will go down to zero, as will the ammonia.....and then...oh shoot, I can't remember what the nitrates should be, but I'll look it up...and then...cycled!! Yayfulness!

PS Thanks for the Kudos Tom!!

[TomK2]

Good news! I believe you need to add some small amount of ammonia daily, and when ammonia and nitrites go to zero you can add fish. ? one more week? less? Nice work.

[FancyGuppyGuy]

Yep youll see nitrites go up and ammonia go down then Nitrites go down and Nitrates continue to go up. When your done ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate ?? up there somewhere Then do a good water change ( just water ) 50% or so to get Nitrates down.

After that your all set fishy fishy time !

Anyhow remember to add the same amounts of ammonia daily to feed your bacteria. If you can spread them out over time like your feeding your new fish

I bet you cant wait! 25 Kudos to you! !!!

P.S. thanks tom

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Oops, there was a second page

[Ginafish]

Yes, I've been adding ammonia everyday because it keeps going down to zero by the next day...looks like the bacteria are flourishing! Today, I added a bit more ammonia to see how well they do with it. It's currently at 2ppm so we'll see if they bring it down to zero tomorrow. I imagine they will. The nitrites are holding steady at 1.0 and the nitrates at 7. I'm very excited. It's amazing to me (even though I'm a biology teacher and know science) how this works without fish. At this point, because I'm feeding them, the bacteria have almost become my "pets". LOL!
Thanks for the kudos!! 8)

[Ginafish]

Just wanted to double-check something. Everything's going fine. Bacteria are eating the ammonia down to zero everyday. Still have high nitrites and medium nitrates. My question was this: my pH has been going down steadily from 7.0 to 6.2. I wasn't overly concerned since there's no fish in there, and also I'm sure it will go back up when I do the final water change when the cycle is done. Am I right on this....that the pH dropping is not a big deal?

[TomK2]

Wow, 7 down to 6.2 seems like a big swing to me. Thinking of water chemistry gives me headaches, but wouldn't that indicate that the buffering capacity of your water is low? Since bicarbonate is the most common buffer, that would suggest that you have low water hardness? Do you know what your water hardness is?