Desperate help needed ! Tank cycle crashed. Cant get 'fish-in cycle' to start

[jordzcov]

Long story short, due to changing my aquarium substrate on 11th of June. As a result, my cycle crashed (Despite using the same filter and aquarium water prior to the crash) while the aquarium still contains fish.

Ive been following guides on trying to start a “fish-in cycle” but I’m currently 3 months in and no luck, and have lost roughly 5 fish as a result (2 Guppies and 3 Neon Tetras).

I am in dire need of getting the cycle started but am running out of ideas.
Any suggestions or help would be extremely apricated.

Tank:

• 60L
• holds 9 neon tetras and 5 Scissor tail Rasboras.

Issue/Readings:

• Ammonia will hit about 0.2, 2 days after a water change. Would previously hit about 0.2/0.5 every day despite water changes
• Nitrate has remained 0 (no traces ever shown)
• Nitrite has remained 0 (no trace ever shown)
• PH = 7.5
• KH =5 (trying to raise but problematic due to such frequent water changes)
• GH= 11

Things ive Tried:

• Daily water changes to keep ammonia low
• Applying bacteria gel directly to the filter sponge
• Buying an additional filter which holds ceramic bacteria rings (so now have 2 filter pumps running)
  • https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/internal-filters/1833-superfish-aqua-flow-300-8715897257742.html

What I’m currently trying:

• Dosing with Xtreme water conditioner to aid in Amonia removal
  • https://www.amazon.co.uk/Microbe-Lift-9007-L-XTREME-473ml/dp/B006057KRA
• Feeding the fish small amounts, every other day
• Performing water changes every other day
• Dosing with xtreme water conditioner and bio booster liquid with each water change
• Adding 3 bio balls once a week directly in to the filter

 

[Aiken Drum]

You are removing too much ammonia.

The bacteria you are trying to grow to cycle the tank needs ammonia as a food source. The goal with a fish in cycle isnt to keep ammonia as low as possible, but to have enough to cycle the tank, whilst keeping it at relatively low toxic levels.

Your target should be to do enough water changes to keep ammonia at around 0.5ppm.

The additional filter wont help. Instead of having 1 uncycled filter, you now have 2 uncycled filters. All the ammonia removing chemicals will be hindering your cycle, not helping.

And to add. The ammonia levels you are reporting are safe levels of ammonia. If you are losing fish, its not down to toxic ammonia levels.

At your pH level and a typical aquarium temperature, ammonia doesnt start to get toxic until you are above 1ppm.

 

[jordzcov]

That makes sense.


When fish started dropping off, i went in to panic mode and just wanted to keep it tolerable for them.


I assumed i may be starving the bacteria, so moved to water changes every toher day to give it a chance to rise to about 0.2, but im assuming this is still too low?


In regards to the filter, the original was the same pump i had before the crash, but the second one i bought was a more powerful pump with the additional compartment for the bacteria/ceramic rings. i know running both doesnt do much to help, but i didnt want to risk turning the original off incase it was developing bacteria, and the new one gave bacteria an additional place to develop.


few questions.
1. would you reccomend movign away from the amonia removing water conditioner, and revert back to normal water conditioner?
2. at what ammonia readign would you reccomend doign a water change? (i usually change around 20%)
3. is it worth just "dumping" a load of bacteria balls int he filter and givign daily top ups of bacteria booster, regardless of doign water changes or not?



Thanks for the help also!

 

[Aiken Drum]

I assumed i may be starving the bacteria, so moved to water changes every toher day to give it a chance to rise to about 0.2, but im assuming this is still too low?

0.2ppm is essentially zero. It could even be zero because these home test kits arent that accurate. If there is ammonia some bacteria will feed on it and grow, but at such low levels ammonia thats only going to support similarly low levels of beneficial bacteria and would take a long time to cycle.

1. would you reccomend movign away from the amonia removing water conditioner, and revert back to normal water conditioner?

Im reading mixed messages from the manufacturers website on that product. On one page it says it removes ammonia, on another it says it detoxifies ammonia. In reality i dont believe it does either, its just something they are claiming to get sales.

If its removing ammonia it will stop your tank cycling. If it detoxifies ammonia it won't affect your cycle. Its clearly not removing ammonia because its showing up in your testing. If that is your water conditioner of choice, i would keep on using it. At least until you have used up what you have bought.

2. at what ammonia readign would you reccomend doign a water change? (i usually change around 20%)

Test daily. If your ammonia is 0.5ppm or lower, dont change any water. If its above 0.5ppm then change water to bring it down to 0.5ppm. So if you see it at 0.75ppm then changing 1/3 of the water will bring it to 0.5ppm. If you see it at 1ppm then change half the water.

3. is it worth just "dumping" a load of bacteria balls int he filter and givign daily top ups of bacteria booster, regardless of doign water changes or not?

If you have bought these products then may as well use them up. They possibly wont help anything, but wont do any harm. Buying more is likely a waste of money, but if you can stand the expense its your choice. If you use them, i would use them as directed by the manufacturers instructions.

 

[jordzcov]

Thanks for that, it was a great help! makes alot of sense.

I only use the xtreme water conditioner as it was reccomended by the pet store to aid the rising amonia levels and help get the cycle started, but i see what your sayign about it being counter productive here.

I'll take onboard your suggestion about the readings/water changes.
As a reference (just to make sure we are on the same page) below is the test kit i use which has a link to the reading indicators. Ammonia i usualy see as the 0.2 (first under the yellow) so i want to wait until 0.5, which im assuming is the 0.5ppm you referenced, and then water change when it exceeds this amount?
how dangerous is this level to the fish? just caucious of needing to raise amonia whilst not wanting to do too much damage here.


Thanks again for the info, is the best support ive had in my months of trying








https://www.ntlabs.co.uk/browse-products/indoor/aquarium-lab/aquarium-lab-multi-test/

 

[Aiken Drum]

Yes. Let the ammonia get above 0.5ppm before doing a water change.

Ammonia isnt as toxic as you might have been lead to believe. The toxicity depends on the pH and temperature of the water. The higher these are, the more toxic your ammonia becomes. At your pH and a typical tropical tank temperature (say 24c) ammonia doesnt become toxic until its over 1.0ppm. I can get into the technicalities of that if you like, but there is a thorough duscussion here if you are interested.

https://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html

The manufacturers of your test kit is correct in saying 0.2ppm is a safe level. But depending on other factors it could also be safe at much higher levels. Its much simpler to say 0.2ppm ammonia is safe, rather than saying x ppm is safe if your pH is y and your temperature is z. It covers all bases for them to just say 0.2ppm is safe. Beneficial bacteria needs ammonia, and the higher you allow the ammonia to get, the quicker the BB will grow. 0.5ppm in nearly every circumstance is a safe level and allows for some inaccuracy in your testing, and delays in doing water changes. Yes, 0.5ppm is going to more risky than 0.2ppm, but its about finding a balance between safety and the long term health of your tank.

 

[jordzcov]

Hi, i just wanted to give a big thank you fo rthe help.


After reading some comments and responses both here and on other forums, i think we have managed to pin point the issue.


It seems the tank clearly isnt cycling, but due to my regular water changes to stop the rising amonia, bacteria has been starved and unable to establish, hence the 0 readings for both nitrate and nitrite.


goign forward im goign to do what can to keep the ammonia levels at around 0.5 and hope the fish can tolerate it. I will also add daily doses of biological enhancer to try and kick start the bacteria, and have also topped up the filter with about 5 bio balls.


Now that im not changign the water every other day, i noticed alot of debris/waste build up, is this normal? im assuming so because theres no bacteria breakign it down, but im just concerned for the fish. I understand it needs to get worse before it can get better, but am hop[ign they suffer no further losses.


Is there anything i should do in terms of maybe, letting the amonia sit high for a few days e.g. 0.5, then doing a water change to give the fish a 'breather'?



I also did a reading of my tab water based on a few recomendations, and can confirm there was 0 ammonia.


Any additional tips or suggestiosn would be amazing.

 

[Aiken Drum]

At 0.5 the water isnt toxic, the fish shouldn't need a breather. Your fish will be a better guide to problems than a test kit though. If something looks off, test the water then change some. Better safe than sorry.

Did you get this waste build up before you crashed your cycle? Is it poop or leftover food? Not sure what you changed your substrate from/ to, but maybe it was always there but its only now noticable now you have a different substrate Get a turkey baster to spot remove any waste between water changes. Seeing poop is normal, but if its easy enough to remove, then remove it.

 

[jordzcov]

At 0.5 the water isnt toxic, the fish shouldn't need a breather. Your fish will be a better guide to problems than a test kit though. If something looks off, test the water then change some. Better safe than sorry.

Did you get this waste build up before you crashed your cycle? Is it poop or leftover food? Not sure what you changed your substrate from/ to, but maybe it was always there but its only now noticable now you have a different substrate Get a turkey baster to spot remove any waste between water changes. Seeing poop is normal, but if its easy enough to remove, then remove it.

I changed from sand to gravel. so the sand just always looked dirty. but today while takign the ornament out to get to the filters to add soem bio balls, the amound of kick up was abit nasty. It wouldnt be food, as i only currently feed them every other day, and just a small amount ( in an attempt to limit waste/ammonia), so i think its just fish waste and plant debris, but there was just alot of it.


I'll keep a close eye on my fish for any gasping, bulging eyes, or curved spines (these were all the issues i had with previous illnesses recently) so fingers crossed we shoudl be fine from here.


As a final note, how logn should it now take to start to see nitrite start to rise after lettign ammonia hit 0.5?

 

[Aiken Drum]

In my experience it takes a week or so to start seeing nitrite, and maybe another week or 2 until you stop seeing ammonia and your nitrite really takes off. 1ppm of ammonia converts to 2.7ppm nitrite, so expect to see higher levels of nitrite than ammonia. You will need to control nitrite in a similar manner to ammonia. 0.5ppm is a good target there too.

Once the ammonia is all being converted to nitrite, you will probably start seeing nitrate too at this stage, but it could take another 4 or 5 weeks to see all your nitrite going to nitrate. This second stage (nitrite to nitrate) seems to take longer than the ammonia to nitrite stage.

Every cycle is different though. Hopefully you see quicker progress, and are getting some benefit from what you have done so far. But it could take longer too.

 

[jordzcov]

In my experience it takes a week or so to start seeing nitrite, and maybe another week or 2 until you stop seeing ammonia and your nitrite really takes off. 1ppm of ammonia converts to 2.7ppm nitrite, so expect to see higher levels of nitrite than ammonia. You will need to control nitrite in a similar manner to ammonia. 0.5ppm is a good target there too.

Once the ammonia is all being converted to nitrite, you will probably start seeing nitrate too at this stage, but it could take another 4 or 5 weeks to see all your nitrite going to nitrate. This second stage (nitrite to nitrate) seems to take longer than the ammonia to nitrite stage.

Every cycle is different though. Hopefully you see quicker progress, and are getting some benefit from what you have done so far. But it could take longer too.

Hi,
I do have a few final questions if that's okay.


Do you think it's worth scrapping the ammonia removing Xtreme water conditioner, and reverting back to my old Fluval one https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/fluval-aqua-plus-water-conditioner



Others mentioned maybe scrapping the use of bio balls (and potentially the bio booster liquid) as it may be causing conflicts in the tank?


I appreciate there is no way of knowing for this, but with 0.5 ammonia being a safe level, is there any other reason I may have lost so many fish (hence my approach of just trying to limit ammonia levels)


While aiming to do water changes to keep ammonia at 0.5, is it still worth doing my usual weekly water change regardless of readings?

 

[jordzcov]

I've already spotted one tetra gasping at the top



It's unlike others that have died where they were continuously gasping, but I'm not sure if this is a sign of things to come

 

[Aiken Drum]

Hi,Do you think it's worth scrapping the ammonia removing Xtreme water conditioner, and reverting back to my old Fluval one https://www.fishkeeper.co.uk/fluval-aqua-plus-water-conditioner

I dont think your dechlorinator will be removing ammonia. You are still detecting ammonia, it cant be. At best its detoxifying the ammonia and this wont be affecting the bacterias ability to consume it and grow. My feeling is its not even detoxifying ammonia, and its just a dechlorinator like ever other. If you think your dechlorinator is effecting things then by all means change. As long as you keep up with your water changes you dont need its detoxifying effect. Personally, even though i dont fully trust these products claims, i also think its better safe than sorry and would use a dechlorinator that does claim to do the detoxifying. If not what you are using then seachem prime. Prime is by far the most commonly used dechlorinator in the world, and many, many people (myself included) have sucessfully cycled tanks using prime.

Others mentioned maybe scrapping the use of bio balls (and potentially the bio booster liquid) as it may be causing conflicts in the tank.

I really dont see these products being any hindrance or causing any conflicts. They probably arent doing any good. It probably doesnt wont make any difference if you use them or not. Maybe use one and not the other?

I appreciate there is no way of knowing for this, but with 0.5 ammonia being a safe level, is there any other reason I may have lost so many fish (hence my approach of just trying to limit ammonia levels).

You did crash your cycle, and presumably your ammonia spiked much higher than the readings you are reporting before you corrected them with water changes. Ammonia poisoning is a long term thing. Just because you got your water to good levels quality water doesnt mean they didnt suffer from water quality issues weeks or even months previously.

While aiming to do water changes to keep ammonia at 0.5, is it still worth doing my usual weekly water change regardless of readings?

Yes. But if you are going a week without ammonia and/ or nitrite topping 0.5ppm and needing a water change, that would be a good sign your cycle is establishing.

You are at the very beginning of a process that will likely take a couple of months. It could be weeks before you see any progress at all.

 

[jordzcov]

A quick thought, with one fish already showing signs of struggling, I'm wondering if it's worth trying to get the fish out and in to a desperate tank?
I currently only have 1 tank, 1 heater, and 2 filters.
I'm wondering if it's worth buying an additional small tank and heater and placing the secondary/smaller filter in there with the fish. I'm assuming this process would be safer for them? Or is it better just to continue with theninfish cycle at this point?

I was unsure if I take 50% water from my tank, place it in a new tank, then top both up with 50% fresh water and conditioner and then transfering the fish across. Would this water be safe for them if I then did daily/every other day water changes, or would this be just as dangerous for them?

 

[Aiken Drum]

I dont see any benefit. You would be moving the fish from a larger uncycled tank to a smaller uncycled tank. Waste would build up quicker and be more hazardous in the smaller tank than the bigger one.

Without fish in the larger tank you wouldnt have an ammonia source to cycle it with. You could do a fishless cycle in the larger one i suppose, but your fish would be better off living in the larger tank while it cycled rather than a smaller tank while that one cycled.

 

[jordzcov]

Yea that makes sense. I've been water changing ever day/every other day the past few weeks, so thought it may be worth putting them in a different tank to continue regular water changes, seeing as it wouldn't be cycled, and at least they are put of the high ammonia tank while it cycles. Just looking to prevent any deaths if I'm honest

Do you think it would be worth doing or just leave them where they are?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Lets say you are doing daily water changes in your tank to keep your water parameters at essentially zero. You take those fish and put them into a new temporary tank half the size. To keep the water essentially at zero you would need to do those water changes twice as often. So 2 x water changes per day. And you would need to keep that up while you did a fishless cycle in your main tank. Your temporary tank wont cycle and reduce the water change requirement for the same reason you are currently experiencing, not enough ammonia. Your main tank will likely take 6 to 8 weeks to cycle, lets be optimistic and say 6 weeks.

If you are happy to change the water in your temporary tank twice daily while your main tank cycled then go for it. Better still, difference between a 30 litre tank and 60 litre tank is £30 and once you are done you have another 60 litre tank to have fun with and it wont be as much work to keep everything at zero while your old tank cycles.

Despite how i might come across sometimes, im not one for telling people how they "must" cycle tanks or even make recommendations. If someone wants to do a fishless or fish in cycle ill advise them on a way to do that. Ill point out if i see a misunderstanding or they are missing something in what they are doing. And i can give pros and cons on various methods. There are good reasons to do fish in cycles, and good reasons to do fishless. And different people will have different priorities when making a choice.

One thing i can say. We get a lot of people having issues with cycling a tank. By far, more people have trouble doing fishless cycles and their issues are almost always resolved by switching to a fish in cycle. You have been a bit of a rarity thinking about going the other way round.

Your tank will cycle if you continue along with what you are now doing and give it enough time. I cant guarantee your fish will survive. They may not survive with what you suggest either. That would be a lot of water changes and water changes are stressful. Your fish have already been through a lot and fish with compromised health often dont survive, and when they do they can have shortened lifes. I have no idea how old your fish are to start with. A couple of months in your temporary tank may take them to their natural lifespan regardless.

It seems you have decided to get a second tank, and if that's your choice then thats 100% what you should do. They are your fish. If you want advice on setting up a new tank and doing a fishless cycle on your old tank we can do that. Do a water change to bring your water to parameters you are more happy with, and get down to the store to buy a new tank.

 

[jordzcov]

[FONT=&quot]Hi, thanks for that, it’s really informative. I hadn’t decided as of yet to swap to a fish less cycle, it was just that I know of a spare tank and my grandparents’ home so knew it was available if needed. But based on what you’ve said, I don’t think I’ll do it. I had initially thought it would be a safer way of doing it for the fish, but it doesn’t seem so. and based on what you’ve mentioned, doing the fish in cycle seems best (I was just nervous as everything I ever read recommended doing fishless if possible).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On a good note, I just wanted to give a quick update. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I last did a water change on Sunday 25/09 and my readings today (29/09) showed[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ammonia = 0.5 Nitrite 0.5 and nitrate 0.5. following this reading I then did a water change.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I wasn’t expecting to see nitrite this quick, and really wasn’t expecting nitrate. just wondering if this seems strange to you?
I will try to copy in pictures I took of my reading below, but the nitrate/nitrite show very light tinges of red, which didn’t really show up well in the photo. the PH one is just clear tank water as a reference.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One other query i had was im seeing a fair bit of algae showing up as a thin green layer on the substrate tank edge, and some logn whispy/hair like strands, or fluff style on some of the plants. from what i read this is just a side effect of poor water quality, but do i need to manage this atall? there isnt much that raises the alarm, just didnt know if its sotmhing i need to deal with right now or not
[/FONT]

 

[Aiken Drum]

Ive really no idea what im looking at with your test kit, its not one ive ever used. Does it really detect nitrate as low as 0.5ppm? Every test ive seen has 5ppm as the lowest reading.

I wouldnt even bother with testing for nitrate, it doesnt tell you anything useful and even for professional testing often throws up weird, inaccurate results which can confuse things when it isnt doing what you are expecting.

But all positive, it shows your cycle is developing and that we were correct that the lack of ammonia/ excessive water changes was stopping things progressing.

As for the algae, its usually a nutrient and lighting imbalance. Im assuming you didnt have an algae issue before you lost your cycle? How long are your lights on for? Your water changes should be controlling available nutrients. Is it something you can manually clean up?

 

[jordzcov]

https://www.ntlabs.co.uk/browse-products/indoor/aquarium-lab/aquarium-lab-multi-test/
That is the test kit i use,
ont he right hand side there is an image that shows the reading indicators, but my mistake, it should have read3, your right.


Im guessing this is all a good sign then, and maybe all the work prior will help speed things up if im getting both nitrite and nitrate after only a few days. Im assuming the plan would be now just to monitor, change water any time ammonia or nitrite goes above 0.5, and wait until its cycled?


Yea the algae is cleanable, i just havent wanted to try and get it out while im not doing water changes and have bits floatign around, just wanted to double check it didnt raise any red flags with you