Fishless Cycling Question

[TechLife]

Fishless Cycle Stalled or Did I Botch it?

Hey all,

New to the forums but not to fish keeping.

I am an old school throw-the-fish-in-and-keep-the-ammonia-down type of guy. I am currently amidst my first attempt at a fishless cycle. It is a 46 Gal bowfront and I am about a week and a half in.

I have read the excellent guide posted by eco23 about 100 times and am trying to be patient but am at a point where I have some questions.

When I setup the tank with the new filter, I took some filter media from a well established, healthy aquarium and threw it in the filter hoping it would speed the process. I have two large airstones with a 40/60 air pump running unrestricted. The temp is set to 80-82. The filter is a Fluval 406. The substrate is pool sand.

I have been maintaining an ammonia level of 4ppm as best I can. It has gotten to the point now where I dose it up around 7am and by 3-4 when I get home it has dropped to .25 or maybe even 0. Dose it again then and check it around bedtime and add a little more if necessary. Lather, rinse, repeat.

The nitrites are still off the chart. NitrAtes are around 30 and hovering*. pH is stuck around 7.8 which isn't uncommon for my tap water to be high. I am using dechlorinator. This has been going on for about 5 days now. I performed a 50% water change two days ago and it has changed nothing.

If I still need to be patient, so be it. The lack of movement in readings and length of time it is taking has me a bit concerned that I some how screwed it up and need to take corrective action.

* At one point last week, my NitrAtes were off the chart as well so I did a 50% change then as well. I think this could have been user error. I didn't realize I needed to shake bottle 2 as thoroughly as is actually necessary. Since I started shaking correctly, it has been firmly stuck at 20-30 or so. Is there a chance I fouled the test kit?

I'll be honest, I've been doing this for a long time but never at this precise of a level. I've only ever monitored ammonia and pH and always had great success. This isn't a "throw the fish in" kind of a tank. This one has to be perfect the first time. Maybe I just need a little reassurance.

Any info you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

 

[hjsvt]

I'm a beginner and fishless cycling my first ever tropical tank. I'm at a very similar place in my cycle. Almost exactly the same numbers. My 4ppm of ammonia is gone in about 12 hours now. But my nitrites haven't decreased yet. Based on my reading and research, I think we just need to be patient. The second part of the process can take 2x longer than the first part according to what I've read. So hang in there and know that there are others in the same boat as you!

 

[TechLife]

Thanks for the reply. I'll just remain patient and keep checking. At least I know I'm not the only one now.

 

[Caliban07]

How much ammonia have you added in total? 1ppm ammonia will convert to roughly 2.7ppm nitrite. So say you have dosed 8ppm ammonia so far. That's 21.6 ppm nitrite. The nitrite bacteria seem as though they are getting to work. Imagine you're down to 16ppm nitrite. Your 50% water change puts you around 8ppm that's still off the chart. These are guesstimates but you need to be thinking along these lines.

The water change would have done wonders. Just leave it be now and be patient. Nitrites stage can take up to 28 days to complete.

I'm in the process of writing a new guide. Will take some time though. 90% of fishless cycling problems are down to impatience. You're on the right track.

Good luck.


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[TechLife]

Total on the ammonia so far? I have no idea. Since it's been dropping so quickly for the last 5-6 days, I've been dosing 2 tablespoons per day. One in the AM, one in the PM which brings it back up to 4ppm.

You said leave it be for now. Does that mean stop feeding it ammonia or keep doing what I'm doing?

 

[Caliban07]

Total on the ammonia so far? I have no idea. Since it's been dropping so quickly for the last 5-6 days, I've been dosing 2 tablespoons per day. One in the AM, one in the PM which brings it back up to 4ppm.

You said leave it be for now. Does that mean stop feeding it ammonia or keep doing what I'm doing?

Stop feeding ammonia.


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[hjsvt]

I strongly disagree with stopping the ammonia. I would decrease the amount you are adding and keep the total for the day at no more than 4ppm. From what I've read, total for 24 should be 4ppm. You could also drop it back a little to 2ppm. But consider your stocking plan first. If your initial stock plan is 80% for example keep your ammonia up. If you stop ammonia adds, you will starve your BB. Your nitites will go down because nothing is producing it but that doesn't mean you've completed your cycle. Instead you've stopped it completely. Make sense?

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[Caliban07]

I strongly disagree with stopping the ammonia. I would decrease the amount you are adding and keep the total for the day at no more than 4ppm. From what I've read, total for 24 should be 4ppm. You could also drop it back a little to 2ppm. But consider your stocking plan first. If your initial stock plan is 80% for example keep your ammonia up. If you stop ammonia adds, you will starve your BB. Your nitites will go down because nothing is producing it but that doesn't mean you've completed your cycle. Instead you've stopped it completely. Make sense?

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The bacteria won't starve.


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[hjsvt]

I disagree based on my own research but that's the biggest problem with this whole process. There is lots of conflicting information out there. I'm going to continue with the way I've been going and see if my cycle behaves as my research has said it should. Over and over I have read in multiple places, keep dosing ammonia and be patient. Establishing the second half of the cycle is a much slower process.

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[Caliban07]

That's ok. Continue to follow your research. You know, continuously dosing ammonia is one of the main reasons cycles run in to trouble in my opinion.

Bacteria need many other things in order to survive. Bacteria use 7.14ppm alkalinity to fully nitrify 1ppm ammonia. If you have poorly buffered water that's going to be a problem. Bacteria also require micro and macro nutrients. More ammonia = more demand on nutrients. Phosphate is a key one. If you water is poorly buffered usually, not always, your water will be soft. Soft water means less nutrients = more problems.

I noticed you have trouble with hard tap water. It's no surprise your cycle could cope with the demand on its resources.

Just remember, not everyone's clear liquid is the same.


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[hjsvt]

I could not agree more!!! I wish two+ weeks ago somebody had helped me with that. In my particular case, I am keeping a log and testing GH, KH, pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and Phosphates. I am also dosing Flourish Excel, and phosphates as needed. I have variety of plants and my substrate is mostly Caribsea Flora-Max.

The biggest problem with cycling is the vast quantity of conflicting and frankly bad information out there and people doing what others say without knowing what their water parameters are compared to whose advice they are listening too. I have become a very firm believer in knowing all aspects of your particular water chemistry BEFORE proceeding with anything. And I really wish that was the #1 discussion at the top of a sticky about getting started for a newbie.

I high recommend this article, largely because it is based on SCIENCE and not observations and it includes many references.

Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle | Cycling Methods | Ammonia & Nitrates

 

[Britty]

Dose the ammonia every second day now. Your ammonia stage is complete. You only need to keep the bios alive now, not continue to bomb them with ammonia.

Now, water change until your test kit reads below maximum nitrites. As many water changes as it takes. It won't harm or stall anything. If your nitrites have skyrocketed it may have overwhelmed and stalled the nitrite part of the cycle. Do the same if your nitrates are over the top also.

These two things combined will rekick start and see out the remaining part of your cycle.

 

[hjsvt]

Thanks Britty, this is exactly the path I'm headed down for the remainder of my cycle.

 

[hjsvt]

So yesterday I dosed 4ppm of ammonia at 9:15 am, last night at 9 pm I was at 0 ppm ammonia and 5.0 ppm or greater of nitrites. This morning not quite at 24 hrs, (I tested at 7:30 am), I still have 0 ppm ammonia, now 1.0 ppm nitrite and 40 ppm of nitrate! My cycle is definitely headed in the right direction. I am going to start dosing 1ppm of ammonia daily because that was what my research indicated was the amount that "feed" the BB until you added fish. It's working!! It's working!!!

 

[uncgirl1]

It's definitely working! When I did my fishless cycle I added ammonia the way you are. Although, I will agree with the above poster that you won't starve the bb by not adding ammonia. My qt tank was also fishless cycled with ammonia. However, I don't add ammonia everyday to keep it going. Maybe every 3rd or 4th day. Adding to much can definitely be a problem. I've run into that before as well. Problem meaning elongation of the cycle process.

So yesterday I dosed 4ppm of ammonia at 9:15 am, last night at 9 pm I was at 0 ppm ammonia and 5.0 ppm or greater of nitrites. This morning not quite at 24 hrs, (I tested at 7:30 am), I still have 0 ppm ammonia, now 1.0 ppm nitrite and 40 ppm of nitrate! My cycle is definitely headed in the right direction. I am going to start dosing 1ppm of ammonia daily because that was what my research indicated was the amount that "feed" the BB until you added fish. It's working!! It's working!!!

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[Caliban07]

I could not agree more!!! I wish two+ weeks ago somebody had helped me with that. In my particular case, I am keeping a log and testing GH, KH, pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and Phosphates. I am also dosing Flourish Excel, and phosphates as needed. I have variety of plants and my substrate is mostly Caribsea Flora-Max.

The biggest problem with cycling is the vast quantity of conflicting and frankly bad information out there and people doing what others say without knowing what their water parameters are compared to whose advice they are listening too. I have become a very firm believer in knowing all aspects of your particular water chemistry BEFORE proceeding with anything. And I really wish that was the #1 discussion at the top of a sticky about getting started for a newbie.

I high recommend this article, largely because it is based on SCIENCE and not observations and it includes many references.

Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle | Cycling Methods | Ammonia & Nitrates

This is correct and precisely why I am currently in the process of writing a tried and tested fish less cycling article based on science.

It is imperative that you know you water and system inside out.


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[Delapool]

A close relative of mine has had the tank go idle as all fish are dead. Tank had a couple of plants so eventually 0 readings for everything. Plants pretty sad looking by this point though after a month or so.

Some more fish were picked up and tank restarted no issues - not even a mini-cycle. No spike in ammonia at all. I actually thought there would be problems but all good.

 

[hjsvt]

A close relative of mine has had the tank go idle as all fish are dead. Tank had a couple of plants so eventually 0 readings for everything. Plants pretty sad looking by this point though after a month or so.

Some more fish were picked up and tank restarted no issues - not even a mini-cycle. No spike in ammonia at all. I actually thought there would be problems but all good.

This is speculation on my part but decay generates ammonia even more so than normal fish respiration. So if the plants weren't looking good there was probably enough decay to generate enough ammonia to feed the BB and keep the cycle going. This is my own speculation based what I've read so don't quote me on it!

 

[Caliban07]

This is speculation on my part but decay generates ammonia even more so than normal fish respiration. So if the plants weren't looking good there was probably enough decay to generate enough ammonia to feed the BB and keep the cycle going. This is my own speculation based what I've read so don't quote me on it!

Lol stop speculating. You need to research actual scientific papers not just articles.

The bacteria survived because the go dormant for a long time. At lest 3 months according to one science paper but that was only because that's as long as they tested for.




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[Delapool]

This is speculation on my part but decay generates ammonia even more so than normal fish respiration. So if the plants weren't looking good there was probably enough decay to generate enough ammonia to feed the BB and keep the cycle going. This is my own speculation based what I've read so don't quote me on it!

Interesting question. I'll see if I can find out more details.