Is this normal?

[Zoomy]

Hey there.
So my 18 gallon, planted tank is in its second month of attempted cycling ( :\ ). On Monday I thought I was about to 'See the Light' as my Nitrites were at .25ppm FINALLY, and after a small water change the nitrates were down to 10ppm.

...And then when I tested everything this morning (TWICE), my nitrites had jumped to at least 2 or 3 ppm, and nitrates were at 40+ppm.

What on earth is going on here?

(PH is steady at 7.6, the water is buffered with oyster shell [ had PH problems earlier which led to a stall], and I've been dosing ammonia to about 1-2ppm each day after testing in which ammonia levels are 0).

HELP?

 

[molliwopp]

Sound like its going to plan to me. Just wait alittle longer. Time is all it takes while cycling a tank. Its easier than riding a bike.

Why are you only dosing to 1-2ppm? This isnt needed and the tank will cycle easily with just a straight dose.at 4-5ppm.

what makes you think you had a stall earlier in the cycle?

 

[Zoomy]

K, I hope so :c

Back in September things were going well, and then everything just stopped...moving. Ammonia wasn't lowering like it was, nitrites weren't increasing as they were, same with nitrates, and plant growth really slowed to a crawl. This went on for a week. Posted about it over here, and someone said to check the PH. It had dropped from 7.6 (the norm) to 6.2 x_x. Dosed the PH back up, put in a buffer, and things took off again!

 

[molliwopp]

Yeah thats a shame, a water change instead of the buffer would of done the same thing. I can imagine its making you worry more about your second attempt. Honestly though it sounds ok to me at the moment.

 

[Mebbid]

Yeah thats a shame, a water change instead of the buffer would of done the same thing. I can imagine its making you worry more about your second attempt. Honestly though it sounds ok to me at the moment.

I'm going to agree with that. It's gonna take a little more time. Patience is a virtue that sucks to need in this hobby

 

[severum mama]

No reason to dose up to 4-5 ppm unless you plan to add a huge fish load right off the bat, which I wouldn't recommend anyway in a new tank. Newly cycled tanks can be unpredictable. The easiest thing to do IMO is just keep doing what you're doing, and start off slow when the tank cycles through.

 

[molliwopp]

Well ive never EVER had a problem, 4ppm stops any chance of an ammonia spike when you add your fish. There are no adverse effects what so ever of dosing to 4ppm. After adding the fish the bacteria will either grow or drop back to account for bioload now in the tank. Period.

Also dosing to 4ppm ammonia will produce and establish bacteria at a more excellerated rate as ammonia is in abundance!

 

[severum mama]

4 PPM and above can stall a cycle. I've seen it happen on so many threads here.

And newly cycled tanks can be unpredictable no matter how high you dose.

It isn't necessary if you're going to take things slow... Period.

 

[molliwopp]

4 PPM and above can stall a cycle. I've seen it happen on so many threads here.

And newly cycled tanks can be unpredictable no matter how high you dose.

It isn't necessary if you're going to take things slow... Period.

Never had a cycle stall either, If you keep an eye on your ph, nothing can go wrong.

A newly cycled tank can be unpredicatable, another reason to dose to 4ppm incase something 'unpredicatable' happens and you wipe out half your bacteria.

 

[severum mama]

Mmmm... not really. Sometimes you add fish and things just go wonky whether you dosed to 4 ppm or not. I've spent nearly the past nine years looking through the FW getting started forum. All the more reason to simply take things slow.

You and I can agree to disagree on this one, and that's fine. But 4 ppm is an arbitrary value that came into fashion on this forum a few years ago, and is now hailed as gospel truth here.

 

[molliwopp]

How many of those incidents would of been different if dosed to.4ppm rather than 1-2ppm? Until i see or hear of legit reason why dosing 1-2ppm over 4ppm is advised it will stay my personal gospel.

What can happen to bacteria grown to 4ppm that cant happend to it grown to 1-2ppm? Its nothing more than insurance. We'll have to agree to disagree without any disrespect towards.

 

[Caliban07]

I have to agree with Sev here. I've only been on the forum a few months but I've seen so many people having trouble fish less cycling and I'm sure it's down to this 4ppm.

While I agree that 4ppm might be a good TARGET value to overcompensate as you say. Me personally (although I have never done a fish less cycle) would start from 0.5ppm and increase in increments of .5 over a month or so. Giving the bacteria time to grow with the feeding. This way you will not get off the charts nitrite/nitrate readings. You should try to replicate a slowly stocked tank.

I've noticed people that do this have had to change out ridiculous amounts of water over a short period of time just do they can get a readable value of nitrites/nitrates.

Again it's my opinion and it has worked for you but it hasn't worked for lots of people and vid not been here long.

 

[molliwopp]

This way you will not get off the charts nitrite/nitrate readings. You should try to replicate a slowly stocked tank.

I've noticed people that do this have had to change out ridiculous amounts of water over a short period of time just do they can get a readable value of nitrites/nitrates.

You do make a good sounding point here about nitrites, not the nitrates because they arnt important. But extra water changes to cut cycle in half is insignificant.

So would you rather,

A. finish your cycle in a month with added water changes.

B. Take twice as long with less water changes.

People actually dwell on bringing your nitrite levels down to readable level too much and probably for that reason, so theyre readable. Again, ive never had high nitrite levels stall a cycle either. TRUTHFULLY, the first ever fishless cycle i did my nitrite were completely unreadable after adding ammonia daily for 2weeks and guess what, they dropped to 0 all by themselves.

 

[Caliban07]

I'm only going off the evidence I've seen since being on here. And that is that while fish less cycles are done to prevent stress to fish, it does nothing to prevent stress to the hobbyist.

I also would say that if you dose smaller parts gradually building up to the magic number it would be quicker. Like with anything. If you present something with a huge task. It will take longer as opposed to breaking down the task in to, excuse the pun, more bite sized chunks. It would be a much more efficient cycle.

The bacteria that break down nitrites are the last to colonise as there food source is sparse during the start of the cycle and that their reproduction rates are considerably slower. This is another reason why nitrites hang of the charts for so long. And if you keep adding 4ppm you end up in a mini cycle of your own changing out water to read the value only to find that nitrites of gone off the charts again. And you have to do it all over again with nitrates as whatever you have put in will come out in the end.

I think we should encourage a cycle that only ever uses 1ppm every other day UNTIL you get a nitrate reading and 0 of the others THEN you can start increasing to whatever target you feel you need to train your bacteria to be able to convert.

Or just do a fish in cycle. Lol

 

[molliwopp]

I'm only going off the evidence I've seen since being on here. And that is that while fish less cycles are done to prevent stress to fish, it does nothing to prevent stress to the hobbyist.

I also would say that if you dose smaller parts gradually building up to the magic number it would be quicker. Like with anything. If you present something with a huge task. It will take longer as opposed to breaking down the task in to, excuse the pun, more bite sized chunks. It would be a much more efficient cycle.

The bacteria that break down nitrites are the last to colonise as there food source is sparse during the start of the cycle and that their reproduction rates are considerably slower. This is another reason why nitrites hang of the charts for so long. And if you keep adding 4ppm you end up in a mini cycle of your own changing out water to read the value only to find that nitrites of gone off the charts again. And you have to do it all over again with nitrates as whatever you have put in will come out in the end.

I think we should encourage a cycle that only ever uses 1ppm every other day UNTIL you get a nitrate reading and 0 of the others THEN you can start increasing to whatever target you feel you need to train your bacteria to be able to convert.

Or just do a fish in cycle. Lol

No and sorry but youre not making sense. Youre going off what youve read on the forum and you said yourself, you have no actual experience in fishless cycling. Bacteria dont need training, they arnt at school, this is biological growth. "Like with anything" where ever you look in the natural world, Food in inadundance will maximise and excellerate growth. And IT IS as simple as that.

I dont know why you mention nitrates either because they have no detrimental effects on the cycle what so ever and dont need to be changed out.

 

[Zoomy]

Thanks for the tips/advice, guys! I'll keep chugging along and hope things even out. Granted I'll be moving at the end of the month, which may throw some things, but here's hoping it all gains stability before then.

 

[Caliban07]

Ok so last post. Ultimately whatever you dose whether it is 1ppm or 2ppm or 4ppm both are heading in the same direction.

Dosing 4ppm at the start of a cycle to a colony of bacteria that hasn't even begun to establish itself yet seems pretty pointless to me. You are just going to end up with a backlog of each toxin until there are enough bacteria to process the toxin. As it happens nitrosamonas bacteria reproduce faster than nitrobacter and are very efficient at converting ammonia in to nitrite. This is why nitrite go off the charts because nitrobacter is slower to multiply and nitrites hang high.

I mention nitrates because I beginner trying to fish less cycle may not understand why nitrites/nitrates are so high and get frustrated. But usually they keep adding 4ppm ammonia which is only creating more. It introduces more water changes than necessary.

Now I never said high nitrites/nitrates reading has a negative effect on the cycle. I'm saying that it has a negative effect on the hobbyist. They don't understand why readings are so high and because they are still dosing ammonia it may SEEM like the cycle has stalled. They get frustrated and some start from scratch.

What I am suggesting is that by slowly working up to 4ppm of ammonia, you are more likely to have a smoother first fish less cycle. No I haven't had much experience in fish less cycling but I have done copious amounts of reading/research on the bacteria in our aquarium and how it behaves. Train may have been the wrong word. Grow maybe. But ultimately, you can control the colony of bacteria by reducing/adding it's food source.

I didn't even see I nitrite reading during my fish in cycle and I changed my water like twice.

 

[HN1]

The problem with dosing to 4PPM regardless of intended initial stocking is that you stand a very good chance of setting yourself up for a "mystery" mini-cycle after livestock has been added. The bacteria which will grow to the 4PPM mark will suffer die off if the stock doesn't support that level and become just another ammonia source in the tank. An equillibrium will eventually be achieved, but I've seen countless people lose fish and get extremely frustrated (even leaving the hobby) for that very reason. Slow and sure is a better approach rather than fast and hope IMO. Seeded cycle is even better for that very reason. You gradually build the bacterial colonies rather than trying to "hit a mark" with the animals added. KISS, Occum's razor, etc.

 

[molliwopp]

The problem with dosing to 4PPM regardless of intended initial stocking is that you stand a very good chance of setting yourself up for a "mystery" mini-cycle after livestock has been added. The bacteria which will grow to the 4PPM mark will suffer die off if the stock doesn't support that level and become just another ammonia source in the tank. An equillibrium will eventually be achieved, but I've seen countless people lose fish and get extremely frustrated (even leaving the hobby) for that very reason. Slow and sure is a better approach rather than fast and hope IMO. Seeded cycle is even better for that very reason. You gradually build the bacterial colonies rather than trying to "hit a mark" with the animals added. KISS, Occum's razor, etc.

Well like you say this is dependant on what stock youre going to add. The amount of ammonia released by bacteria dying off wouldnt be nearly enough to cause problems.. please tell me if im wrong.

 

[Caliban07]

That is a good point and one that I never really thought of. Whether bacteria die of would create such an ammonia spike that it can harm or kill fish I really can't say but it seems extremely plausible and more than likely when in conjunction with new livestock and potential beginner overfeeding.