Long long story

[nataliedd]

Ok im writing afresh from start til now my fish story. I've written various threads about differing problems over the last couple of months and i continue to have problems so im hoping for clarification to rectify rubbish advice me and my husband have been given. sorry it's a long one....

Firstly I want to add that all steps that we've taken have always been under advice from lfs , so as newbies we felt we were in good hands. ( SO Not the case)
Bought a 340litres tank to start our new hobby together as a family. we went for a fish in cycle, so after 8 days of tank being started we bought 6 tetras, every week we went back to shop and as advised by lfs continued to buy a handful of fish.

Having researched further and reading forum threads I now understand our choices to be stupid and hasty but we didn't know this at the time and took lfs at his word.

Over 8 weeks of cycling our purchases have been 10 neons, 6 rummys, 6 corys 4 mollys and 5 guppies. We developed ich a few weeks ago and completed 2 week heat treatment ( I now realise the importance of a quarantine tank, you don't need to tell me!! ) we then had possible columnaris due to new molly being highly stressed and having white fluff on face. This fish was put in a borrowed, cycled quarantine tank but died.

We have recently lost 2 corys and 2 mollys so I now think we may have "new tank syndrome" as our amnonia has been sitting at 0.25 for days despite constant water changes and limited feeding. Before this our amnonia and nitrites were sitting at 0 so I assumed our tank was cycled. At the minute PH is slightly high at around 7.8, nitrates and nitrate are 0. Amnonia 0.25.

So I understand nitrites and amnonia have to be 0 and this increase has probably caused the last few deaths. We now know we should have taken things much slower and we have learnt not to go near lfs ( who Fyi informed me not to bother testing water cos in 30 years he has never felt the need to, he just goes by fish behaviour! !!! I know that will make people cross )
Anyway I'm frustrated and just want to be a successful fish keeper. So please offer comments and advice to help me weather this new storm! I know there will be info missing so ask questions if you need. Nat

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[LeviRH]

Filter, lighting, temperature, substrate, all would be helpful. What pH does the water come out of your faucet? pH is high, indeed. I would shoot for about 6.8-7.2, and you could do that with something such as pH Down by API.

Truth be told, any fish that had issues, I would take them back to where I got them.

I'd just stick with the Neons, until everything was under control, those fish are nearly
indestructible in my experience.

(Local Fish Stores will normally tell people what ever it takes to make a sale, or several sales)

 

[TomK2]

I have cycled a 55 gallon tank with fish without exposing the fish to detectable levels of ammonia or nitrite. I did it by using a very low bioload (ie: few fish) and very careful, sparce feedings. I used about 0.25 inch of fish per gallon. In my case, that was about 6 zebra danios and 6 platies added over two weeks, if my memory is correct. In about 6 weeks the nitrates were detectable without ever seeing ammonia or nitrite.

Your bioload might not be too high to salvage the situation. Sparce feedings - only enough to be immediately (2 minutes?) consumed with nothing getting to the tak bottom. And water changes to dilute the ammonia. Ammonia of 0.25 ppm isn't good, but isn't that terrible either. Nitrites are worse, especially when fish are subjected to them after surviving ammonia. Add no more fish.

A colony of bioload bacteria should take 4 to 6 weeks to establish if you do not have access to colonized filter substrate from an established tank. If you do, get some now, and add it to your filter.

I always wondered why fish stores don't have filters packed with colonized media to give some to new tank owners to help them.

 

[nataliedd]

I'm from northern Ireland so hope our terms/names for equipment is the same.......We have a separate systemised sump system. Lightening is two long tubes but will have to find packaging for wattage. Temp is around 75. Not sure what tap water ph is, do I test this by using my API kit? The ph down is this something I should add regularly to bring ph down long term?

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[LeviRH]

Yes, you should be able to test the pH with the API kit, temp. is fine. Depending on what your pH is out of the faucet, you could either switch to fish that are more tolerable of a higher pH. If it's fine around 6.0-7.0, I wouldn't worry about it. Just wondering if there is something that may have been added that altered the pH.

If it is high, and you want to keep these fish, I would suggest adding it during every water change to keep it consistent. Not really ideal, nor fun, but some people have to do it. I just consider 7.8 too high.

 

[LeviRH]

Your bioload might not be too high to salvage the situation. Sparce feedings - only enough to be immediately (2 minutes?) consumed with nothing getting to the tak bottom. And water changes to dilute the ammonia. Ammonia of 0.25 ppm isn't good, but isn't that terrible either. Nitrites are worse, especially when fish are subjected to them after surviving ammonia. Add no more fish.

A colony of bioload bacteria should take 4 to 6 weeks to establish if you do not have access to colonized filter substrate from an established tank. If you do, get some now, and add it to your filter.

I always wondered why fish stores don't have filters packed with colonized media to give some to new tank owners to help them.

Agreed 100%

 

[nataliedd]

I have cycled a 55 gallon tank with fish without exposing the fish to detectable levels of ammonia or nitrite. I did it by using a very low bioload (ie: few fish) and very careful, sparce feedings. I used about 0.25 inch of fish per gallon. In my case, that was about 6 zebra danios and 6 platies added over two weeks, if my memory is correct. In about 6 weeks the nitrates were detectable without ever seeing ammonia or nitrite.

Your bioload might not be too high to salvage the situation. Sparce feedings - only enough to be immediately (2 minutes?) consumed with nothing getting to the tak bottom. And water changes to dilute the ammonia. Ammonia of 0.25 ppm isn't good, but isn't that terrible either. Nitrites are worse, especially when fish are subjected to them after surviving ammonia. Add no more fish.

A colony of bioload bacteria should take 4 to 6 weeks to establish if you do not have access to colonized filter substrate from an established tank. If you do, get some now, and add it to your filter.

I always wondered why fish stores don't have filters packed with colonized media to give some to new tank owners to help them.

So even after 9 weeks am im right in saying if my nitrates are very low but theres an increase in amnonia then I'm still not properly cycled yet? Il prob see increase coming with my nitrites then? Oh no my poor wee fish!!

Can't get any filter media from established tank so we're adding bacteria to our media

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[nataliedd]

Oh and we have gravel which I now know isn't great for corys

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[trennamw]

That does make it easier to help.

Just to be clear, have you ever seen ammonia and nitrite at zero?

Have you read about fish-in cycling? I think step 1 is that we help you get the tank fully cycled.

I struggled with pH issues a lot for about a year and followed many pieces of advice. The products labeled "pH up" and "pH down" and "proper pH" are, in my experience and research, more trouble than they are worth. Some introduce unwanted phosphate and all may result in pH that goes up and down, while you subject the fish to osmotic stress by repeatedly adding stuff to the water.

PH of 7.8 is fine if you're not raising discus.

Maybe you can start by giving us the pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings from your tank today, and we can advise of the next step. Testing your tapwater can help as well.

You're not currently medicating the main tank, right?

If you're the book type ... I read a lot of books and this is the only one whose advice I haven't since learned is outdated. It also had unique explanations I didn't find anywhere else, about all the water quality issues and which fish really work for beginners. I have seen it in kindle format and expect some copies would be available in Northern Ireland.

It has the advantage of not having people shout at each other with conflicting info as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Guide-Fresh-Water-Aquariums/dp/0793821010

I admire your diligence. There are good experienced people here who will help. You seem very determined, you'll figure it out. I lost several fish starting out too but once I got a tank cycled and stable it's been smooth sailing for 9 months.


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[nataliedd]

Yes, you should be able to test the pH with the API kit, temp. is fine. Depending on what your pH is out of the faucet, you could either switch to fish that are more tolerable of a higher pH. If it's fine around 6.0-7.0, I wouldn't worry about it. Just wondering if there is something that may have been added that altered the pH.

If it is high, and you want to keep these fish, I would suggest adding it during every water change to keep it consistent. Not really ideal, nor fun, but some people have to do it. I just consider 7.8 too high.

We've always had similar readings for ph so we must have hard water in the area. Il test it and see and then research fish best suited, ta

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[nataliedd]

That does make it easier to help.

Just to be clear, have you ever seen ammonia and nitrite at zero?

Have you read about fish-in cycling? I think step 1 is that we help you get the tank fully cycled.

I struggled with pH issues a lot for about a year and followed many pieces of advice. The products labeled "pH up" and "pH down" and "proper pH" are, in my experience and research, more trouble than they are worth. Some introduce unwanted phosphate and all may result in pH that goes up and down, while you subject the fish to osmotic stress by repeatedly adding stuff to the water.

PH of 7.8 is fine if you're not raising discus.

Maybe you can start by giving us the pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings from your tank today, and we can advise of the next step. Testing your tapwater can help as well.

You're not currently medicating the main tank, right?

If you're the book type ... I read a lot of books and this is the only one whose advice I haven't since learned is outdated. It also had unique explanations I didn't find anywhere else, about all the water quality issues and which fish really work for beginners. I have seen it in kindle format and expect some copies would be available in Northern Ireland.

It has the advantage of not having people shout at each other with conflicting info as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Simple-Guide-Fresh-Water-Aquariums/dp/0793821010

I admire your diligence. There are good experienced people here who will help. You seem very determined, you'll figure it out. I lost several fish starting out too but once I got a tank cycled and stable it's been smooth sailing for 9 months.


Sent from my iPhone with three hands tied behind my back.

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[nataliedd]

Oops hit rely too soon...... We have seen amnonia and nitrites together at 0 but this may be because we've never really seen an increase in nitrite so im worried that there's lots to come?
PH 7.8. Nitrate just a bit over 0, amnonia 0.25 and nitrite 0.
No medication in tank.
I'm a book worm and read loads but haven't managed to find a good tropical fish book yet il take a look at that one suggested thanks

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[trennamw]

Usually ammonia and nitrite both at zero, with the presence of nitrates, suggests you built up enough bacteria to process the ammonia fully to nitrite then nitrate. It's not uncommon to not see nitrite.

It does help to know the tap water reads zero for nitrates too.

The confusing part is having ammonia present now. What changed between when you saw zero ammo/nitrite, and when ammonia showed up again?


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[Fishfur]

Not wanting to make things confusing for anyone, but have you checked to see how hard the water is ? Hardness is different from pH.. though often higher pH goes with hard water.
Hard water isn't as suited for tetras as it is for some other species, like danios or rasboras. Tetras may adapt to harder water but it's not ideal for them. Most live bearing fish do well in hard water though.

But first, for sure, you need to be certain the tank has cycled. If I go back to check, I'll lose this bit, so did you have plants in the tank ? If not, they can help speed up a cycle, and also use up nitrates when nitrates appear. A few easy low light plants would be a good addition. Anubias or java fern or java moss are the standard low light plants, and there are others as well.

I am not sure if the API master kit has the GH and KH test in it or not, but that is how you test for hard water. GH means general hardness, KH means carbonate hardness. It's not the easiest thing to understand if you aren't into chemistry, but GH is roughly about the amount of calcium and magnesium in the water, while KH is about carbonates in the water. Magnesium and calcium [ or lime] are the two minerals most associated with hard water, the ones that make scale in the kettle or coffee maker. If you do have hard water, the advice earlier to use a pH down product would not work because the carbonates in hard water resist the change..and you get what another poster mentioned, with the pH going up & down and stressing the poor fish badly.

Unless you want to put in an RO filter system on the house water and then adjust that water to suit your fish, it's best to keep fish that are suited to the kind of water you have from the tap.

 

[Autumnsky]

Is there any ammonia in the tap water? Occasionally we have that in ours (eww). But it was good to know because it was driving me crazy trying to understand what was wrong...

Also I wouldn't do anything at this point with your pH until you get the tank stable. It is very difficult to keep adjusting things when you barely know what you are doing. There is enough to work on just getting the tank and fish set.

There are a bunch of articles and threads here for fish in cycling. Good learning to you and happy tank keeping for your future.

You can also test your tap water pH after sitting 24 hours and see how it is. As I understand it, it will be a more accurate reading.

 

[trennamw]

Just to toss more into the confusion ...

I live near the largest freshwater fish store in America. They've also tended to give the best advice. I routinely hear them giving good instructions in fishless and fish in cycling.

Anyway. Their 2 cents on pH is ... Don't even use the API test. Use one for hydroponics that shows 3-10 in large increments.

I'm not saying to buy another test. I'm using an example of not even testing more specifically than 6, 7, 7,5, and 8. They use this test in their own tanks, and they house many sensitive species.

Their recommendation to me, as I sweated pH problems, was "keep it stable somewhere between 6.5 and 8 for all the fish in this room (their showroom with community fish) ... Get more specific with the fish in the other showroom" (sensitive cichlids, discus, eels, rays ...).

My fish stopped dieing when I stopped intervening so much with pH. Now I know my big tank is between 7.5 and 8, and my betta is around 7. I don't know the numbers, I know the specific shade of green each needs to stay in. Same water for both, they each have a different happy place.

KH and GH could be helpful to know but finishing the cycle is first. I tend to refer to it as GH being a wide array of minerals and KH is just the minerals that buffer pH. Few people need to worry about either, but if yours are way off we can help.

You can and probably should skip some feeding days while you are cycling. That book I recommended has a very good fish in guide and it suggests skipping feeding for several days at a time.

Are all the sick fish out of the main tank?




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[TomK2]

Run the full range of tests on your tap water. It is very common for well water to have nitrates in it, and also common for municipal supplies to have chloramines in it. Chloramines test positive for ammonia in the API 2 bottle test kit. Compare tap water to tank water.

If you have nitrates in your tap water, you could mistake those nitrates for an indication your tank is making nitrates and therefore cycled. If you don't have chloramines (ie positive 2 bottle ammonia test with green color change) in your tap water, then ammonia in the tank is from your fish. Possible causes are overwhelmed bio filter from overstocking, overfeeding, dead fish or other tank inhabitants decaying, disruption of bio filter by cleaning filter and removing biomedia, tank not cycled to begin with. You never had nitrates in your tank, so it is most likely it's not in your tap water and your tank had not cycled yet.

I also am someone who found the ph adjusters lots of trouble. It is hard to fight what you use to do water changes with, especially with those chemicals. A better ph down and softener is driftwood and peat moss, a better ph up and hardener is limestone or crushed coral from what I have absorbed here on AA. I just let my pH and hardness be what it is. Right now it's hard and between 7.8 and 8 pH. Has been for years. I have kept typical community tanks, goldfish, and now cichlids.

 

[nataliedd]

Hey all, il read the responses later and respond. I'm of on maternity leave with a baby and toddler who keep me very busy. So I do appreciate all advice and I am taking my fish situation seriously but I'm very preoccupied during the day! Seth has just threw a bowl of lentils on the floor as I write this.........lol. Thanks again

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[nataliedd]

Usually ammonia and nitrite both at zero, with the presence of nitrates, suggests you built up enough bacteria to process the ammonia fully to nitrite then nitrate. It's not uncommon to not see nitrite.

The confusing part is having ammonia present now. What changed between when you saw zero ammo/nitrite, and when ammonia showed up again?


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Yes it's confusing cos I'm not sure if we're fully cycled after 9 weeks or maybe we are cycled but for some reason our amnonia has raised abit. We may have raised it by adding two more lyretail mollys? But these fish were bought after a 2 and half week gap due to us completing a heat treatment from our last purchase of fish.

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[nataliedd]

Is there any ammonia in the tap water? Occasionally we have that in ours (eww). But it was good to know because it was driving me crazy trying to understand what was wrong...

Also I wouldn't do anything at this point with your pH until you get the tank stable. It is very difficult to keep adjusting things when you barely know what you are doing. There is enough to work on just getting the tank and fish set.

There are a bunch of articles and threads here for fish in cycling. Good learning to you and happy tank keeping for your future.

You can also test your tap water pH after sitting 24 hours and see how it is. As I understand it, it will be a more accurate reading.

Gonna test tap water now and see what it reads.....Il keep yous posted.

Have researched fish in cycling and thought I understood but if I'm questioning so much maybe I didn't grasp it all! Il read it again. Ta

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