Need help cycling with a fish

[nisi]

I've had a small fantail goldfish in a 5gal tank for almost 2 weeks. I'm pretty new to this, but I know enough to know that a new tank needs to cycle, and I've cycled with fish semi-successfully before (see below). I'd never heard of fishless cycling until I found this site, and if I could start over I'd probably try that, but it's too late now - I already have a fish. So, if I could get some advice and opinions on cycling a tank with a fish that I do *not* consider expendable, I'd appreciate it. My main question is, what ammonia level is "safe" while the tank is cycling? (I know no amount is really safe, but there has to be some or it can't cycle, right?) I can find all kinds of sites saying to do frequent water changes to keep ammonia from getting too high, but nowhere have I seen any indication of how high is "too high".

So far, I've been testing at least once a day and doing 20-25% water changes roughly every other day or as needed to keep ammonia levels at or below the .25-.5ppm range. Yesterday morning the fish was listless and floating near the top, though it did perk up a bit when we fed it, also it was gulping bubbles and spitting them back out, which I've never seen it do before. Anyway, I tested ammonia and it had jumped to 1ppm, maybe a bit higher. I did three 20-25% water changes yesterday spaced throughout the day. This morning ammonia is back under .5ppm and the fish is more active, though it's still going after the bubbles (not sure if that's significant or not). Is this an ok ammonia level, or should I try to keep it lower? How long should it take to cycle? (Last time it was really quick once I kinda-sorta knew what I was doing, like less than 2 weeks) Anything I can do to make it safer for the fish? Any other advice?


- The tank is a 5gal hexagon tank kit (this one: http://www.aquariumguys.com/eclipse3.html) I realize this won't be big enough for the long term, but I'm willing to move to a bigger tank in the future. In the tank is about 1.5" of gravel, several plastic and polyester plants, and a resin cave-like swim through thingy, which the fish seems to really like.


- 1 fantail goldfish, body about 1-1.25" long not including the tail (side question- when you give the length of a fish, does that include the tail or is it the body only?)

- using the API master test kit, aside from the spike yesterday, ammonia has been .25-.50ppm or less, and nitrite and nitrate are both undetectable

- temp- probably about 76 (I don't have a thermometer to measure, but there's no heater, and we have the thermostat for the house set at 76, so I would think the water should be very close to that)



If I left anything out, let me know.

Thanks!


Past experience with fish:
I cluelessly stuck 2 feeder goldfish in an itty-bitty tank, lost 1 goldfish w/in a couple days, did some reading and learned about water changes and cycling, managed to save the other fish, eventually upgraded to current 5gal setup, fish lived for several years until 2 yr old dumped a huge amount of food into the tank, fish survived but was never quite 100% after that, and it died 6-8 months later. That was last fall.

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

I ended up doing ~30% water changes daily in a 10g with 3 golds. It took ~2months to cycle with a ~70deg F temp. I lost 1 fish that started suffering as soon as nitrites showed up.

 

[Sum22]

I'd say aim for .25. That way, once the nitrites show up, you are able to keep those really low as well.

Fish size without the tail is pretty standard if you have a fish with a long tail, like a sword or the fantails.

Also, you can safely change around 50% of the water if the ammonia or nitrites spike really high like that again. It helps get the levels down quickly. Plus, ammonia and nitrites are going to do more harm to a fish than a 50% water change.

 

[Purrbox]

It's generally recommended that you keep the Ammonia and Nitrite below 0.5ppm. Definately time for a water change if they get as high as 1ppm.

 

[nisi]

I'd say aim for .25. That way, once the nitrites show up, you are able to keep those really low as well.

Thanks, that makes sense. I'll keep it a bit lower than I had been.

But the poor little fish isn't doing too well. It's been sitting in its "cave" more or less motionless all the time. Sometimes it will come out when we turn the light on or feed it, sometimes not. It seems weak when it swims. It's eating some, but it's not going after the food like it was at first, and it isn't constantly scavenging for food like I'm used to seeing from goldfish. I'm afraid its days are numbered, and I feel terrible.

Is there anything I can do to help this fish?

Would putting a live plant in the tank help?
(even though I know NOTHING about growing aquatic plants, but I'm willing to try if it'll help)

Thanks

 

[sogreene]

I don't usually recommend it, unless it's a last ditch option, but ammolock will convert the ammonia so that the fish should be able to survive a spike, but it will still read on your tests. The ammonia is still present in the tank, it is just not lethal, and your tank should continue its cycle process....I used it once when we had a bacteria bloom and our ammonia spiked and would not go down even with large pwc's multiple times daily...we ended up saving all but 1 of our 13 fish. Good luck!

 

[roka64]

You can also try purigen, if you are running a filter.

 

[jsoong]

Do a big water change (75%) & see if it help. I have done 100% changes without ill effects (ie move the fish to new water). What you need to do is to match temperature & water chemistry closely if you are doing big changes.

Also, vacuum the gravel & remove as much waste as possible ... I know, this will slow down the cycle, but will help in reducing the NH3 peaks.

To safely cycle with fish, you need to keep the NH3 low. 0.25 or less is a good level ... but remember that this is the peak you are aiming for .... so after the pwc, the level should be less than that to allow room for the NH3 buildup before your next water change. At this point, an ammonia binder (eg Prime) may be useful as a stopgap while you get your levels under control.

Gulping at air is a sign of O2 deprivation .... either fried gills from NH3 or NO2 poisoning. You can prevent NO2 toxicity by adding low level of salt (0.05%). For NH3, all you can do is provide super clean water & increased aeration - an airstone or adjust your filter for max water splashing.

Adding plants can help .... but this needs to be done before the fish. If you just dump plants in without proper setup (esp. enough light), the plants will die & make the problem worse. In order to effectively use plants for cyclinig (ie silent cycle), you need a lot of healthy growing plants - that usu. means giving the plants a few days/weeks to get established.

The only advantage with a plant at your stage is as seeding material. You would need a helathy, established plant from a tank with fish. Get something for low light & cheap (cheap = fast growing & easy). You are hoping that there are nitrifying bacteria on the plant which you can introduce into your tank to speed up your cycle.

 

[chadthedad]

If you can get something (ornament, substrate, plant, etc.) from an established tank that will help you speed up the cycle. If you don't know anyone with an established tank ask if you can get anything from your LFS. You could try buying biospria to get some beneficial bacteria in there. I have read that biospira works and also read that it doesn't and is a waste of money. I haven't tried it myself.

 

[fearlessfisch]

I would spring for a larger tank for a goldfish. Instead of getting used filter floss or gravel from a tank at the LFS, I would contact a local aquarium society. I think there is a high incidence of nasties like ich in LFS tanks, but through a society you can probably find a nice person with a healthy home tank to give you some floss. That's what we did.

Good luck. I hope the fishy makes it.

 

[nisi]

When I got home last night the fishy was dead I feel terrible. It was such a cute little fishy, and it depended on me to make a safe home for it, and I totally failed.

Something I didn't learn until yesterday-- the higher the pH, the more toxic ammonia is (in a nutshell, I know it's a little more complicated than that). My pH is pretty high so that ammonia spike on Monday probably fried its gills pretty badly. I don't think it stood much of a chance after that, even keeping the ammonia low the rest of the week.

No more fish cycling for me. Fishless only from now on! I have some decisions to make about what to do now (try goldfish again? try to get a larget tank? etc) but I can start another thread for that. Thanks for all the help and ideas.

 

[fearlessfisch]

I'm sorry. You did the very best you could with what you knew at the time. I still cringe when I think about what I did to fish and frogs when I was just starting out in this hobby. You will take what you learned, and future fishies will be lucky when you are the one who picks them out of that LFS tank.

Life is a horrible learning curve sometimes. I'm so sorry about your fish, but glad you are not giving up.