New aquarium/stuck/fishless cycle

[kwinsee]

Hi everyone


Please forgive my lengthy post. Got my daughter an aquarium for her bday (March 8th). She wanted fancy goldfish (2). Was told by the pet store employee that I needed to establish my water for a week before adding fish. Waited a week, brought my water in for a test and all the parameters were good. Bought 2 fish and put them in. After a week of having them in the tank, i vacuumed / water change (nearly 50%). This is what the employee told me I’d have to do each week. I tested the water with the kit I bought and the ammonia / nitrite were very high (2ppm). I THINK the ammonia spike could be because were over feeding the fish (according to the bottle we had to feed as much as they’d eat in 2 minutes, but that’s not very obvious for someone who’s never done this before and we were feeding them like 15 pellets or more per feeding). The ammonia spike could also be because the tank was no where close to being cycled at this point. Who knows. After reading through forums I read that I’d have to perform water changes to lower the ammonia. Which I did several. Unfortunately both fish died. The ammonia went down and has stayed at 0-0.5 at most since having no fish. The nitrite has been stuck at 2ppm almost the entire time and nitrate at 5ppm. I live in Canada so pure ammonia is hard to come by so I’ve been adding fish food consistently for some time now. Started with pellets and then changed to flakes as recommended.

Tank water: 69 degrees
Ammonia: 0-0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 2-5 ppm
Nitrate: 5 ppm
pH: 6.8-7

Tap water:
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
pH: 7.2ish

Tank has been cycling for 7 weeks now.
I have a 30 gallon tank
HOB Aquaclear 50 filter
No plants
One small air rock.

TL;DR
7 week old tank. Nitrite stuck at 2ppm. What should I do at this point?

Thanks in advance
Q

 

[Aiken Drum]

Whenever ammonia drops below 1ppm then you should be topping up to 2ppm. If you are doing this with fish food its very difficult to know how much food to add, especially if you have never done it before. If you are struggling to find a source of pure ammonia/bleech then there are aquarium specific ammonium chloride products. I use Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride.

When you are able to dose 2ppm ammonia and after 24 hours you see 0ppm ammonia and nitrite you are cycled. Your nitrate should also be rising.

The best way to speed up a cycle is to introduce some filter media from an established filter. Alternatively squeezing out a sponge from an established filter is a good 2nd option. Perhaps you have a friend who keeps fish who could let you have some?

Another option is to use a bottled bacteria product like Seachem Stability. Ive had best results with Dr Tims One and Only. These products are a little hit and miss, but worth a try.

Higher temperature promotes beneficial bacteria growth. 83 to 87f is optimum. Is your temperature low because you are doing a temperate tank for goldfish again?

Just a point on goldfish that you may or not know. They get big and can live a long time. Your 30g will probably be ok for 2 goldfish. 40g would be better. Definitely don't look to put more than 2 in there though.

Edit. Your ammonia spike was due overfeeding, not being cycled and not doing sufficient water changes during your fish in cycle. All of these things will have contributed.

 

[kwinsee]

Whenever ammonia drops below 1ppm then you should be topping up to 2ppm. If you are doing this with fish food its very difficult to know how much food to add, especially if you have never done it before. If you are struggling to find a source of pure ammonia/bleech then there are aquarium specific ammonium chloride products. I use Dr Tims Ammonium Chloride.

When you are able to dose 2ppm ammonia and after 24 hours you see 0ppm ammonia and nitrite you are cycled. Your nitrate should also be rising.

The best way to speed up a cycle is to introduce some filter media from an established filter. Alternatively squeezing out a sponge from an established filter is a good 2nd option. Perhaps you have a friend who keeps fish who could let you have some?

Another option is to use a bottled bacteria product like Seachem Stability. Ive had best results with Dr Tims One and Only. These products are a little hit and miss, but worth a try.

Higher temperature promotes beneficial bacteria growth. 83 to 87f is optimum. Is your temperature low because you are doing a temperate tank for goldfish again?

Just a point on goldfish that you may or not know. They get big and can live a long time. Your 30g will probably be ok for 2 goldfish. 40g would be better. Definitely don't look to put more than 2 in there though.

Edit. Your ammonia spike was due overfeeding, not being cycled and not doing sufficient water changes during your fish in cycle. All of these things will have contributed.

Thanks for the reply.
You’re absolutely right. I’m struggling to get the ammonia up to 2ppm. Is it possible my ammonia bacteria are already very well established and that’s why it never gets there? I’d probably have to add a big amount of food for it to get to 2ppm.
Ammonia in any form is not readily available anywhere near where I live. I can try to get Dr.Tim’s off Amazon.ca if push comes to shove but delivery is a couple of weeks. This is the only reason I’ve been using fish food.
I have read about getting used filter media, but unfortunately I don’t really know anyone with any available and I asked at the pet store and they weren’t willing to help.
I never bought a heater because I was told this temp is good for goldfish which is what we plan the get. And thanks for the advice, we will only have 1-2 fish at the very most.

So at this point do I work on getting ammonia online?
Add a big amount of fish food?

Thanks

 

[Aiken Drum]

Its possible you have good ammonia to nitrite bacteria and thats why you cant get your ammonia up. But i think unlikely. Every 1ppm ammonia converts to 2.7ppm nitrite and then 3.6ppm nitrate. If you are really dosing 2ppm ammonia and not seeing it get up to that figure in your test, i would expect to see higher nitrite or nitrate figures depending on how far progressed your cycle is.

I would definitely try and get some bleech or ammonium chloride. Fritz do an ammonium chloride product too and im sure there must be others. If not, i believe that feeding as much food daily as fish will eat in 2 minutes should replicate that 2ppm, so your experience of feeding those fish should be a guide. A cocktail shrimp is another commonly used ammonia source.

You dont need a heater for goldfish, but not heating the tank will slow down your cycle.

Seriously though, my advice would be to get a couple of small goldfish. 100% water change to get the water parameters safe, and do a fish in cycle properly. Its perfectly safe if done properly.
Well not perfectly safe, but relatively safe.

 

[kwinsee]

Thanks again
When you say bleach, are you referring to the same type of bleach used for laundry?
If so, how much would I use?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Yes. Bleach can be used to cycle a tank. But, ive had second thoughts about recommending it.

It has to be pure bleach with no additives, perfumes etc. The really, really, cheap commercial grade stuff. Get the wrong stuff and with any surfacants and you give yourself long term problems in your tank that will need removing. Bleach comes in different concentrations so miscalculate your dosage and you could overdose or underdose and it wont cycle. Mix bleach with something you shouldn't and you create something toxic. Im also from UK and dont know your brands.

Thats why i prefer an aquarium specific ammonium chloride product. You know its safe to use in your aquarium and the dosing instructions are on the bottle.

Im sure if you really want to use bleach a bit of interweb research will get you there, or maybe someone else will advise. But i dont want to be responsible for anything going wrong.

 

[kwinsee]

Thanks again

So as it turns out, I was able to order some dr Tim’s ammonia after all from Amazon. Should get it in 2 days.
In the meantime, I’ll continue dosing with fish food.
If I don’t see any changes by early next week, I’ll go the small gold fish route you suggested. Someone else suggested that as well but my concern was what to do with the goldfish after since I only have one aquarium and plan to get 1-2 Fancy Goldfish later. My tank is only 30 gallons

Thanks so much

 

[Aiken Drum]

I wouldnt expect miracles in a week. If you havent been dosing sufficient ammonia so far, a week of doing so might not be enough to see any progress.

If you go down the fish in route why cant you get 2 small fancy goldfish? Dont do a fish in cycle with fish you dont intend to keep.

 

[kwinsee]

Oh, I didn’t realize you meant fish in cycle with the fancy goldfish. Do you think this is the easier route?
When you say 100 WC, do you mean a complete restart in emptying the entire tank down to the last drop and cleaning? Or just empty as much as my python will empty and then refill / add prime/ cycle.

The reason I was hesitant to do a 100% WC is because my tank is already somewhat cycled isn’t it?

I’m willing to try anything at this point.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Im curious as to what you thought i meant you do with goldfish. Some people throw a few goldfish in a tank, when they die they replace them, when they stop dying you are cycled and they then have to somehow dispose of the goldfish. Sorry if thats how i came across.

Yes, i think since you only plan on keeping a couple of fish anyway, i think a fish in cycle with a couple of small fancy goldfish should be straightforward. Try bottled bacteria, feed lightly, monitor water parameters, water changes as needed. I can give more guidance if you go down this route. Change out as much water as is feasible, no need to clean down. That way you preserve what cycle you have built up with your fish food cycle. If you are ok doing daily testing and regular water changes, maybe daily water changes to start with, it should be relatively safe.

For info, the beneficial bacteria doesnt really live in the water. It grows on surfaces, mostly your filter media and sponges, but also the substrate, glass, any decorations or plants. Anything with surface area. So water changes only remove the tiny amount of the bacteria that happens to be in the water. As long as you dont allow the tank and filter to dry out too long a big water change shouldn't affect your cycle too much, if at all. Ok maybe not 100% water change, you could leave an inch of water to keep the substrate wet.

Fish in or fishless cycle both have advantages and disadvantages. Some people think all the water changes required of a fish in cycle is more hardwork than daily testing and dosing ammonia for a couple of months. Others see it the other way round.

 

[kwinsee]

Im curious as to what you thought i meant you do with goldfish. Some people throw a few goldfish in a tank, when they die they replace them, when they stop dying you are cycled and they then have to somehow dispose of the goldfish. Sorry if thats how i came across.

Hi
I went to the pet store last week and told them about my issue. First off the man who helped me said he’s been fish keeping for 40 years and he’d never heard of adding ammonia to a tank to help cycle. Guess he’s old school. He said it would be much easier with fish in. He told me to buy some “cheap goldfish” and cycle with them until they die just as you mentioned. I wasn’t particularly fond of that idea so that’s why I questioned you.

The only reason I’m hesitant to go this route is because my last 2 fish died. I didn’t know as much as I know now (and that’s not saying much) , but I figured I’d probably end up with some sick fish again. This is the reason I was trying to cycle and make sure it’s safe before adding fish.

I’ve read elsewhere that raising the temperature of the water might help grow the bacteria quicker. Does that make sense?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Many people who work in fish stores understanding of cycling is to run a tank for 24 to 72 hours (depending on what store policy is to say), sell you a product to cycle the tank and then you are good to go. This is complete nonsense. At least the guy you spoke to has some idea on how to cycle a tank, even if its (in my opinion) an unethical method.

I think your problem with your 1st try at fish in cycle (correct me if im wrong) was you possibly overfed, you didnt know about cycling for the first week, so wasnt managing water parameters through testing and water changes, and by this time the damage was done. That 1st week is crucial as this is when ammonia will be building up unless you are doing regular water changes. This probably means a small water change daily for a while, but your testing can guide you. You also didn't mention any bottled bacteria. While it can be hit and miss, it certainly doesnt hurt to use these.

Its really up to you how you cycle. There is no right or wrong way. I just think your circumstances are good for a fish in cycle. You havent had much luck progressing fishless, only plan a light stock anyway. Who wants to look at an empty tank for another couple of months? But if you really want to make sure you are cycled before you add fish thats commendable and a fishless cycle is for you.

I think i mentioned in my 1st reply a higher temp is beneficial. 83 to 87f is optimum. As you said, your goldfish wont need a heater, but if you are doing a fishless cycle you can warm the temperature until you're cycled then take out the heater. Do you want to buy a heater to just take it out when done cycling?

Ive given my thoughts and process on a fishless cycle and how to best speed up the process. So there isnt anything i can add there. If you do go back to a fish in cycle, monitor water parameters daily. Your target should be keeping ammonia + nitrite combined below 0.5ppm. If you see for example 0.25ppm ammonia and 0.25ppm nitrite then do a small (20 to 25%) water change. If they creep up to say 0.25ppm ammonia and 0.5ppm nitrite then do a bigger water change or a couple of smaller ones a few hours apart. Eventually you will consistently see no ammonia or nitrite and your nitrate should be steadily rising and you are cycled. Then you should do water changes to control nitrate, typically keep it below 40ppm. Once you are cycled for your small fish, the cycle should naturally progress as the fish grow. If you gey to the point where 50% weekly water changes doesn't keep you below 40ppm nitrate, you are overstocked and should look at a bigger tank.

Whats your pH by the way? Ammonia toxicity increases with higher pH. Low pH can slow down beneficial bacteria growth. That may be an issue. Swings and roundabouts, but useful to know if you are way over to one side or the other.

 

[kwinsee]

Wow
Thanks for the thorough replies.
I guess it was here that I read about the raising of the temperature. Yes, I’m willing to buy a heater just to get the bacteria going and then remove it once the numbers make sense.

PH is around 6.8-7.
I’ll likely do the 100% WC tomorrow and take it from there
Thanks again for all your advice

 

[Aiken Drum]

No need to do the big water change if you are continuing with a fishless cycle.

Dont buy a heater if you are going to go fish in cycle. The goldfish dont need it, the higher temp will increase the fishes metabolism, more waste, more issues.

 

[kwinsee]

Oh, I understood what you meant. I meant I’d do a 100% WC and then change to a fish in cycle.

However, something interesting has been happening with my fishless cycle the past 2 days. I didn’t want to get my hopes up, but the nitrites seemed to have dropped from 2 PPM which it was stuck at for weeks, to 0.25ppm. It’s held at 0.25ppm for 2 days straight now.
Parameters :
PH: 6.8-7ish
Ammonia: 0.25-0.5 (hard to tell)
Nitrite: clearly 0.25ppm
Nitrate: 5.0ppm.

Is this a good thing? I thought my nitrates would go up as my nitrites dropped.
I’m wondering at this point if I should
1) continue feeding fish food?
2) just tough it out since the nitrites are moving in the right direction?
3) stop feeding food for a couple of days to see if the ammonia and nitrite go to a clear 0ppm.

Thoughts?
Maybe I’m close?

See attached photo

 

[Aiken Drum]

You are right in what you say. If nitrite is falling you would expect to see it come out as increased nitrate. There arent many places nitrate could go.

But, your test isnt all that accurate. Its a home test kit, not laboratory testing. All kinds of things can affect the reading, from lighting conditions you look at the tube in, inconsistencies in your testing, something in the water throwing off the test. Some of the tests dont even test for what it says it does on the bottle. Its possible your nitrite didnt drop as much as you think, maybe the nitrate did go up but not by enough to be noticable in a test reading. While i might recommend testing, its not a definitive test result, its something to guide decision making.

As to whether you are close or not, impossible to say as you have no idea how much ammonia you are dosing. If you are dosing 2ppm then yes you are close, if its only a small amount then no. But, you dont need to be cycled for a fully stocked tank, just for the 2 small fish you are planning on getting.