New to aquariums, QUESTIONS!

[Kat5]

Hello everyone,

I finally got the 10 gallon I've always wanted, but now I've got a few questions about it (well, I hope they are only a few!) First of all, the cycling...

If I were to fishless cycle, would pure ammonia be the best way to go? I've also heard of just tossing some fish food in there to simulate ammonia. I currently have a male betta in a one gallon (I want to add him to the 10 gal when its set up) and was wondering whether putting his "dirty" tank water into the new set up when I change his water would do the same thing as the ammonia/fish food. I've also heard that fishless cycling is a waste of time, and real cycling only starts when fish are added in, but I only heard this said once.

Secondly, I had a few questions about biological filtration. No one in my area seems to sell ceramic rings at all. The tank I bought has a pretty generic set up - it came with the HOB filter. I started looking at substitute biological media, and nylon pot scrubbers came up. Seems as though they're available enough, so I got one and stuck it behind the carbon filter that the tank came with (the carbon filter that I'm hoping to get rid of as soon as I get plants). Now, a lot of aquarium owners seem to be "layering" their filter media - how are they layering them? Horizontally in the filter well? I just stuck the pot scrubber vertically behind the carbon filter for now, but I'll move it if I should. I plan to replace the carbon filter with just regular old quilting batting or that kind of filter floss you can cut out yourself (once again, after I get plants). Is this enough filter media? Do I need a third layer?

Sorry if this is getting long! Am I missing anything? Is there any information you guys could all give me to help me out? I know I should add just a few fish at a time, and I'm just a tad bit fuzzy on quarantining. For instance, if I bought 2-3 platys and they all seemed fine after a good amount of time, then I added my betta, is there any risk of him contracting something funky because they are from two different environments? Even if the temperature and ph are the same? Sorry for all the questions! If I need to go out and buy ammonia or grab some different filter media, I will. My family are all suspicious of the biological filter media, so I'm walking on the edge of a knife with the idea of adding it in! I'll go out and buy some ph testing supplies asap. Thanks for any help guys,

Kat

 

[amesdrew]

Do you already have a filter on the tank with the betta in it?
IF you do, run the new filter in tandem with the old filter. This will help speed up the cycling.

As for the filter media, it sounds like everyone varies. I asked the same question a few weeks ago and it seems like there isn't a best way to have your media set up. I have 2 sponges and a bio-media in mine, but my filter is also probably bigger then yours. If you can fit, 2 of either the filter floss or possibly the pot scrubber, you will be able to save some of the good bacteria if you change the media out one at a time.

BTW what type of filter? AND don't buy fish yet, wait for the ammonia and Nitrite to hit 0.

Also buy the water test supplies and not the strips, most agree the strips are inaccurate.

 

[Kat5]

My betta tank does not have a filter on it, and I'll keep in mind not to buy test strips. The filter is a Topfin 10 - nothing too flashy. The new tank has a heater, it is currently set to 76 degrees... should I not change the temperature at all during this time?

 

[XimeD]

Hello everyone,

I finally got the 10 gallon I've always wanted, but now I've got a few questions about it (well, I hope they are only a few!) First of all, the cycling...

If I were to fishless cycle, would pure ammonia be the best way to go? I've also heard of just tossing some fish food in there to simulate ammonia. I currently have a male betta in a one gallon (I want to add him to the 10 gal when its set up) and was wondering whether putting his "dirty" tank water into the new set up when I change his water would do the same thing as the ammonia/fish food. I've also heard that fishless cycling is a waste of time, and real cycling only starts when fish are added in, but I only heard this said once.

Here's a couple of threads on fishless cycling:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/fishless-cycling-for-dummies-103339.html
Tips and tricks for your fastest fishless cycle!

After having tried both cycling with fish and fishless I am a huge advocate for fishless cycling, the two main reasons being that it is better for the fish and less work for the fish keeper. Now to answer your questions:
1. Yes, "pure" 10% ammonium hydroxide solution would be the best way to go. Fish food can have phosphates in it which can cause algae. In fact, if you don't have live plants keep your lights off (you can turn them on but you will get algae, though honeslty once the tank is running you will probably get some kind of algae no matter what you do, but I digress....). You can get the ammonia at ACE hardware, if you don't have a local ace make sure the one you get has no surfactants, detergents or fragrances in it - if you shake it and it foams then it's no good.
2. While adding the "dirty" water from your other tank might help in that there might some ammonia in it, the amount of ammonia and the frequency at which you would be adding it would not be enough to build a large enough colony of bacteria (more food available = bigger colony, to a certain point though, too much ammonia (like 6ppm I think) can stall the cycle). Sticking to the ammonia solution is better.
3. Done correctly fishless cycling is (IMO) absolutely not a waste of time. The beneficial bacteria need either ammonia or nitrite, plus oxygen to grow. The only difference between cycling with or without fish is where the ammonia is coming from (fish waste or a concentrated solution of ammonia). The only reason I can think of for someone to have said this is that you need to keep adding ammonia for the bacteria to live (while there are no fish to produce the ammonia) the bacteria will die in 2-3 days without food. Fishless cycling is done when the filter can process 4ppm of ammonia fully into nitrates in 24hrs, at that point a large PWC should be done to get rid of the accumulated nitrates and then fish added in no more than 2 days.

Secondly, I had a few questions about biological filtration. No one in my area seems to sell ceramic rings at all. The tank I bought has a pretty generic set up - it came with the HOB filter. I started looking at substitute biological media, and nylon pot scrubbers came up. Seems as though they're available enough, so I got one and stuck it behind the carbon filter that the tank came with (the carbon filter that I'm hoping to get rid of as soon as I get plants). Now, a lot of aquarium owners seem to be "layering" their filter media - how are they layering them? Horizontally in the filter well? I just stuck the pot scrubber vertically behind the carbon filter for now, but I'll move it if I should. I plan to replace the carbon filter with just regular old quilting batting or that kind of filter floss you can cut out yourself (once again, after I get plants). Is this enough filter media? Do I need a third layer?

1.Beneficial bacteria attach themselves to surfaces, so anything with a high surface area will do, spongy or porous materials are ideal. The nylon pot scrubbers should work.
2. The reason for the layering is that there different kinds of filtration, mechanical, biological and chemical. Ideally you want the water coming in from the tank to flow first through the mechanical filtration (going though coarse filters first to trap the bigger debris and then fine filters to trap the smaller debris) then biological filtration and finally chemical filtration (water flows through the carbon last). The pot scrubber you are using will be doubling as mechanical and biological, so if by behind the carbon you mean that the water coming from the tank goes through this first them it is fine. If you do get the filter floss then I don't think you need pot scrubbers at all because they both carry out the same function, you could try 2 layers if you can fit them. Are you running the carbon to get rid of medications or tannins (brownish color due to driftwood) in the water? otherwise you don't really need it.
3. I don't think you need a third layer, I should have asked this fist, but what kind of HOB is it? if it is the adequate size for your tank there is no reason why you would need a third layer or anything different than the cartridges that come with it. If you got this filter as part of a starter kit you might want to look into either adding a second filter or getting a better filter. Manufacturers tend to overrate their filters, so if you have a 10gal tank you could get a filter rated for a 20 or even 30gal tank. There is no such as too much filtration, but there are some filters that can produce currents that are too strong.

Sorry if this is getting long! Am I missing anything? Is there any information you guys could all give me to help me out? I know I should add just a few fish at a time, and I'm just a tad bit fuzzy on quarantining. For instance, if I bought 2-3 platys and they all seemed fine after a good amount of time, then I added my betta, is there any risk of him contracting something funky because they are from two different environments? Even if the temperature and ph are the same? Sorry for all the questions! If I need to go out and buy ammonia or grab some different filter media, I will. My family are all suspicious of the biological filter media, so I'm walking on the edge of a knife with the idea of adding it in! I'll go out and buy some ph testing supplies asap. Thanks for any help guys,

Kat

You can't go wrong with quarantining, if you have the extra tank for it I would say go for it. I personally don't quarantine my fish because I don't have the extra tank, but I have to be very very careful with the fish I get and it is always possible all my fish will be infected, that is the risk of not running quarantine. To answer your question, yes, even if the pH and temperature are the same there is a risk he may get something if your platys had it, this doesn't mean he will get something, but in general if one is not doing quarantine one should keep a very close on the tank after adding new fish and be prepared to take action. However, from what you said, you said you were adding the betta to the platys after some time, so if this means you kept them separate for this amount of time (4 weeks is a safe amount of time) then you essentially quarantined your fish and if the time was long enough then no, neither fish should get sick
If you do fishless cycling then you can add more than 2-3 fish at a time, like when you are done with your 10gal you could move your platys and betta into it and add a couple more fish too.

Hope this helps

Edit: just saw your filter is a topfin 10, yeah you could look into getting another filter if you have the extra cash, aquaclears are among the best. However, if you are not planning on fully stocking your tank or if you are stocking with young fish you can maybe get away with the topfin while your fish grow. My personal experience with this was that after cycling my 20gal with fish and the filter than came with it (aqueon 20) I would never see my ammonia at 0, it would always be slightly greenish (not quite at 0.25ppm), then I added a second filter and problem solved.

 

[tyspot1000]

If you want to do pure ammonia, thats fine as long as you can find it in any fish-stores around you (sometimes hard to find).

If you cant find any pure ammonia, You could always do a pinch of food everyday (Can get a bit messy, but once the tank is cycled, a water change should clear that up) or put a piece of raw shrimp in a media bag and keep it in the tank (great way for a source of ammonia).

As far as pouring the bettas old tank water in the tank, I wouldnt think that it would bring much ammonia. If you are keeping up cleaning the tank (Water change every 2-3 days since you dont have a filter) there shouldnt be any ammonia in the 1 gallon tank, I would just stick to the other 3 options.

I have seen some people laying the sponge or filter floss with carbon or no carbon first (bottom) , next the activated carbon (middle), and then ceramic media on top ( in your case, pot scrubbers). I have also seen what I said, but opposite.

As far as your filter, I would recommend getting a different one, Topfin filters have been known to break down or make really loud noise after a few months, Besides, that filter is rated for a 1-8 gallon (80 GPH). I would recommend getting a aquaclear 20 as your replacement, You wont be disappointed

I wouldnt think the betta would affect the platies in the tank as long as he has not disease like fungus, parasites, etc.

Since you are having a betta in the tank, and if you get the aquaclear filter, I would recommend putting it on the lowest flow setting (bettas dont like strong flows) , covering the filter intake with a sponge (filter intakes are known to catch bettas fins and rip them, and sponge in the outflow of the filter (to also lessen the flow)

The tank should take appropriately 1-2 months to cycle (shorter if you seed the tank). Once your tank is cycled, your parameters should be: 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5-20 nitrates.

As said above, test strips are very inaccurate, so your best bet is going to be a liquid test kit (I recommend the API).

Since you are going to do plants, you need a good source of lighting (it doesnt really matter for low-light plants though) For medium to high-light plants, It is recommended to do 2-3 watts per gallon for good plant growth. Some good low-light plants are java moss, java fern, anubias nana, and crypts.

If you have any other questions, I am willing to answer

Tyler

Edit: ninja'd by XimeD

 

[Kat5]

These responses have really helped!

I went ahead and bought some ceramic rings, put them in the place the plastic pot scrubber used to be. I'm kinda starting to wonder whether I should leave the carbon filtration after all, especially if (for whatever reason, I most likely WILL end up upgrading my filter) I stay with the top fin 10. I spoke to a guy (I'll admit, it was at Petsmart) and he claimed that removing the carbon filter could lead to a build up of waste in the aquarium. Did he mean that suddenly changing from a carbon to a no-carbon after the tank is cycled is a bad idea? But if I just used regular filter floss, that would work as both biological and mechanical filtration, right? So if I had a good bacteria colony going, they'd still do their job much in the same way the carbon would... or am I wrong about this? I also bought some pure ammonium hydroxide and fed some to the tank - I'll test the water sometime tomorrow. Of the plants I currently have, they consist of a java fern, 2 bamboo, and an anubias. I couldn't tell you the specific anubias to save my life, but it looks to be a nana. I heard that the java fern and anubias are good, hardy plants to have, so I'm hoping I'll have no trouble with them! Another thing - how much ammonia should I feed in this 10 gallon? I read somewhere that is it good to add it in until it registers in the water as 4 ppm? Any of you know if this is correct?

Thanks for all the responses guys I probably sound like a total nut, haha.

 

[XimeD]

These responses have really helped!

I went ahead and bought some ceramic rings, put them in the place the plastic pot scrubber used to be. I'm kinda starting to wonder whether I should leave the carbon filtration after all, especially if (for whatever reason, I most likely WILL end up upgrading my filter) I stay with the top fin 10. I spoke to a guy (I'll admit, it was at Petsmart) and he claimed that removing the carbon filter could lead to a build up of waste in the aquarium. Did he mean that suddenly changing from a carbon to a no-carbon after the tank is cycled is a bad idea? But if I just used regular filter floss, that would work as both biological and mechanical filtration, right? So if I had a good bacteria colony going, they'd still do their job much in the same way the carbon would... or am I wrong about this? I also bought some pure ammonium hydroxide and fed some to the tank - I'll test the water sometime tomorrow. Of the plants I currently have, they consist of a java fern, 2 bamboo, and an anubias. I couldn't tell you the specific anubias to save my life, but it looks to be a nana. I heard that the java fern and anubias are good, hardy plants to have, so I'm hoping I'll have no trouble with them! Another thing - how much ammonia should I feed in this 10 gallon? I read somewhere that is it good to add it in until it registers in the water as 4 ppm? Any of you know if this is correct?

Thanks for all the responses guys I probably sound like a total nut, haha.

About the activated carbon:
-Unfortunately the guy at petsmart either mislead you or he didn't really know what he was talking about. IMO "waste will build up" is a very general statement, what kind of waste? define waste?
- Activated Carbon will NOT remove ammonia (As a chemist, I should know but here is a reference anyway which has pretty much all you ever want to know about AC Activated carbon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
-Activated carbon will remove organic compounds such as medications, certain odor causing compounds and tannins (released from drifwood and turn the water brown)
-The carbon and the beneficial bacteria do very different jobs and for your set-up I don't think you need carbon at all so save yourself the money (remember these guys want to sell you stuff)

About dosing ammonium hydroxide:
-Because I am too lazy right now to do the math (if youre math inclined and you would like to know, let me know and I'll go into it at some point), when I fishless cycled my 75gal i would need 10mL of solution to achieve 4ppm of ammonia so for your 10gal start with 1mL (20 drops = 1mL) and go from there. Anywhere between 2-4ppm is fine, just don't go above 6ppm since this can stall the cycle (if you do, do a PWC to bring it back down). Also, sorry if I am stating the obvious but wait about an hour after adding before testing the ammonia to give the ammonia enough time to diffuse throughout the tank.
-Yes, a lot of people will say 4ppm, there is thread somewhere in this forum where they argue for starting at a 2ppm dose (that would be around 0.5mL or 10 drops for your 10gal) and then as the tank cycles, up the dose to enough for 4ppm. I am personally an advocate for this approach (and it worked like a charm in my 75gal) because:
-You can think of cycling as ocurring in two stages first the bacteria that convert ammonia into nitrite will grow (nitrosomonas) and as nitritite becomes available a second type of bacteria (nitrobacter) that converts nitrite into nitrate will start to grow. Nitrites above 5ppm will also stall the cycle, so if you start dosing 4ppm of ammonia daily then the first bacterial colony will grow much faster than the second and produce nitrite fast enough that you might need more water changes to keep them below 5ppm. Whereas if you start with 2ppm until the second colony "catches up" in growth, then you can increase both colonies at a similar rate to be able to process 4ppm of ammonia fully into nitrates in 24hrs. Either way will work, the 4ppm straight away will require more PWCs than 2ppm then 4ppm but still nowhere near the daily PWCs (or more) than cycling with fish would require.

 

[tyspot1000]

I would recommend removing the bamboo as it is not fully aquatic, unless the leaves are not out of the water, slowly it will die and rot in the tank leaving you with a mess. Also, the roots are known grow through your silicone and make the tank leak.

Tyler

 

[Kat5]

Once again, thanks for the info. And yes, I was aware that as a petstore employee, it was his job to get me to dig into my little pockets, but that's why I'm glad people like you guys exist, haha! I'll remove the lucky bamboo that is completely submerged underwater, and I'm glad that the continued use of these carbon filters will not be necessary. You all are life savers ^_^!

 

[Kat5]

Once again, thanks for the info. As a petstore employee, I'm aware it was kinda the Petsmart dude's job to get me to dig into my little pockets, but that's why I'm glad fish smart people like you guys exist haha! I'll remove the lucky bamboo that is completely submerged underwater, and I'm glad that the continued use of these carbon filters will not be necessary. You all are life savers ^_^!