Nitrite Level Issues... HELP

[Bigbeezy]

Hello all! First post here, but avid reader up till now.

I am having a very frustrating time with my new tank. The Nitrite levels are proving very difficult to get under control. Please read my whole post before responding, because I am going to provide a lot of info in order to get the best help

My setup is a 37g Freshwater Marineland Tank with a 250gph filter with the BioWheel feature as well. There are only artificial plants in the tank as of now. I have had the tank going for about 8 weeks.

I knew that fishless cycles are best, but due to an impatient girlfriend, we ended up getting 4 hearty looking silver colored Gourami from WalMart to start with, and added some African Cichlids a couple weeks later. I now understand that adding the fish then was not a good idea.
So at the moment, we have the 4 Walmart Fish, and 4 Kenyi Africans. All the fish get along great

For a while, I was dealing with the usual elevated Ammonia levels. With 25% water changes every 2 days I was able to keep the levels down below 1ppm. I was using the API StressZyme Bio-filter booster to help things along. After 3 weeks, I noticed that the ammonia levels would not rise above .5-1ppm between water changes, so I began to focus on Nitrites.

The Nitrites are absolutely wearing me down. From week 3 until now(week 8) the levels will stubbornly rise between water changes. I vacuum the gravel enough to keep the sitting waste to a minimum, and I have been alternating between daily 25% changes and 50% changes, depending on the Nitrite levels. The levels would rise about 1.0ppm per day if I did not do a water change. I usually don't allow the Nitrite levels to get above 1.0ppm, but I'm sure there have been a couple days of 2ppm.
Once, I let it go a few days to see if I was overchanging, and the levels shot to 2.0ppm by the 4th day. After my water changes, the Nitrite levels are usually 0.5ppm, but they always come back up the next day.

I have been adding aquarium salt and 3x normal doses of Prime water additive to combat the presence of the Nitrite, so I have not lost any fish, and they do not appear stressed.

I have been rinsing my filter media in the water I remove with the changes.

I have not changed or messed with the Bio-wheel at all.

I treat all my new water with ample amounts of Prime conditioner to remove the chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. After adding the Prime and stirring for a few minutes, I let the fresh water sit a few hours to ensure any chemicals in the water are not present when I pour it in.

I use API Cichlid pH buffer and minerals as to keep my pH at 8.2 and my hardness at 250 thru all the water changes.

I add Cycle Brand Bio-Filter Bacterial Booster after the daily changes.

I don't think I am overfeeding, I have even tried reduced the feeding to every other day, and even skipped 4 days once.

The water was slightly cloudy during the 3rd and 4th weeks, but now the water is always crystal clear and there is no algae or other growths.

Tonight I did a water test(API Master Test Kit) right before a water change:
Ammonia: 0 - 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 1.0ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm

These reading are the norm before I do a water change.

I need some advice... I cannot seem to get the Nitrate - Nitrate phase complete. The tank is stuck in the high Nitrite phase, and the water changes are wearing me out!

Please help me, my fellow fishkeepers!

 

[jeffp]

if you are rinsing the filter pad every water change, I would try not rinsing it so often, only once in a while when it gets really clogged, and stop the bacteria booster all together.

 

[steez]

I think you're just adding too many chemicals....Just temp matched water and a good water dechlor is enough. You're going through the cycle with fish in your tank, it's a lot of work. I also made the same mistake.


You need to do more water changes, 1.0 level is too high for the tank, you want it below .25. Ideally you want it at 0... Don't rinse the filters every time, wait til you actually need to clean it, maybe once a week or two weeks-ish

those africans need a bigger tank. They are also very aggressive. they won't live long in a 37g tank.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/artic...g-but-I-already-have-fish-What-now/Page2.html

 

[Bigbeezy]

Thanks for commenting!

I have only been rinsing the filter when it starts to resist the water flow thru it, which is about every 2 weeks. I just ran out of the Cycle bacterial treatment tonight, so I'll hold off on buying more and try it without for a week or so.

I was reading the forums after I posted and saw another similar post and reading it made me do another 50% water change. So I have done a 50% water change 2 times today with about 6 hours in between. After the second PWC of the day, my Nitrite level is 0.25ppm..... However, I am anxious to see how the level looks in 24 hours.

 

[Bigbeezy]

I think you're just adding too many chemicals....Just temp matched water and a good water dechlor is enough. You're going through the cycle with fish in your tank, it's a lot of work. I also made the same mistake.


You need to do more water changes, 1.0 level is too high for the tank, you want it below .25. Ideally you want it at 0... Don't rinse the filters every time, wait til you actually need to clean it, maybe once a week or two weeks-ish

those africans need a bigger tank. They are also very aggressive. they won't live long in a 37g tank.

I often wondered if I was supplementing too much... I will take the advice and cut the bio additive and just stick with the Prime.

I certainly plan on upgrading to a 75 gal once they start to outgrow the current tank. I also plan on finding a new home for the original WalMart fish when I upgrade so the tank is all Cichlids. At that upgrade point, the plan is also to add a few more adult Cichlids that are compatible with the existing 4 and a new tank means new territories.

In the meantime, I have made the best possible home for them given the 37g tank size. I used slate and built a huge centerpiece with many levels, caves, and other hiding spots there is also a large floating log, and another log off to the side that both serve as great caves too.

 

[steez]

Sounds like you're on the right track.

Keep us updated, I'd like to see it when you're finished.

edit: also, good luck on the cycle. keep at it without the chem.'s. It'll go!

 

[Bigbeezy]

Well..... its been 3-4 weeks since I first posted. Thank you all for the comments... I have taken all the advice given here, but I am still having Nitrite issues!

I haven't changed the filter in 6 weeks.
I do 25% water changes every day.
I reduced feeding to a min.
I stopped using bio-supplement chemicals.
My tank has no problems converting Ammonia to Nitrite.
Ammonia is near 0ppm, (maybe a tiny bit above 0ppm if I skip a daily PWC).
I do have some Nitrates(10ppm before PWC)
I am unable to get past the Nitrite phase. I have been battling these Nitrites for almost 2 months now. The only thing keeping my Nitrites down near 0.25ppm are my near-daily water changes(I'll miss a day every now and then.) If I miss a day, the Nitrites will increase by almost 0.5 during a 24hour period. I'm sure if I quit doing the PWCs, the levels would skyrocket and kill my fish in a week or so.

Even though I have been doing all I can to keep the levels down, I am sure that my few fish have suffered at least some because of Nitrite exposure over this long of a time period(7-8 weeks).
I don't know what is keeping me in this phase, and these daily 25%(10gal) PWCs are wearing me down.

Does anyone have any more ideas on what might explain this situation, or ideas that might help me get past this?
Please help me someone

 

[steez]

Hold on let me turn on the Eco light (like batman).

He'll fix this!

 

[eco23]

Do you still have the Gouramis in there you planned on re-homing? The easiest way to fix this is by decreasing your bio-load. Less fish = less toxins and will be easier to get a handle on. A tank being "cycled" simply means there is enough beneficial bacteria that it's capable of converting the toxins the fish are producing. So if you remove fish, you may already have enough bacteria to keep the tank stable on it's own.

Are you still using the buffering powder? The pH usually isn't an issue during cycling unless it's extreme, but the no2 to no3 bacteria can struggle with high levels. I've read articles about difficulties cycling in conditions created for African Cichlids. Im not saying that's singly the cause...but it may very well be a contributing factor.

Other than what I listed above, you've got a good game plan. Lots of water testing, tons of fresh water, heavy doses of Prime and aquarium salt during this phase to prevent nitrIte uptake.

 

[Bigbeezy]

The Gouramis were given away a few weeks ago to ease the load. The information you wrote regarding the buffer is interesting. I still use it with all my PWC. Based on your advice, I am going to half the amount of buffer powder I am adding with the PWCs. That should put me at a pH of 7.5 vs the 8.2 I have been running. I'll decrease the pH over a few days so the fish aren't shocked. Thanks for the suggestion, because at this point, I'm open to almost anything. Keep the ideas coming. One more thing..... would live plants help out the situation any?

 

[eco23]

The Gouramis were given away a few weeks ago to ease the load. The information you wrote regarding the buffer is interesting. I still use it with all my PWC. Based on your advice, I am going to half the amount of buffer powder I am adding with the PWCs. That should put me at a pH of 7.5 vs the 8.2 I have been running. I'll decrease the pH over a few days so the fish aren't shocked. Thanks for the suggestion, because at this point, I'm open to almost anything. Keep the ideas coming. One more thing..... would live plants help out the situation any?

Plants will indirectly help...but definitely worth trying if you're up for it. Plants utilize ammonia and nitrAte as nutrients, and in a well planted tank with fast growing stem plants they can rapidly absorb toxins. NitrIte seems to be one of the toxins the plants ignore...but since ammonia turns into nitrIte, if you can remove the ammonia (via the plants) before it turns into nitrIte...it will help tremendously.

The more plants the better. Just tossing a couple in isn't going to make any remarkable difference, there has to be a healthy amount for it to truly impact the toxin level. Keep in mind though...keeping live plants adds an entirely new responsibility because unhealthy / dying plants release...guess what...ammonia!

You'll also want to make sure plants are compatible with your fish. Many species like Cichlids and Goldfish make it their lifes purpose to uproot and destroy every plant in the tank

 

[Bigbeezy]

Still having the same issues with the Nitrite. I reduced my cichlid count to 6 2 weeks ago. Certainly my 40g tank should be able to handle 6 small(1.5-2") cichlids. I have been doing the darn 25% water changes almost every friggin day for over 3 months. I have had the same gravel, decorations, and bio wheel since day one, and I haven't changed the filter in over a month. Just been rinsing to keep water flowing thru it.

Something here needs to give because the partial water changing for this tank is really beating me down.

Could the persistent high Nitrites be something relating to the slate type rock centerpiece I constructed for the tank? Is there a reaction going on that could be blamed on the type of rock?

Please everybody, scour your brains as hard as you can for any options, as I am nearing the point where I go insane!!

 

[steez]

So you're really only about a month into your cycle because you replaced the filter.

When you rinse the filter, are you rinsing it in tap water?

I know what you mean, my 55g was a fish-in cycle and it took a long time and a lot of PWC's. It's worth it, just stick it out.

I don't think so.. slate shouldn't effect that at all. Did you use aquarium safe silicone(don't think that would matter either, just an option I guess..)?


I think you're just not done yet because your filters only a month old, and they carry most of the BB.

 

[Bigbeezy]

I thought about the filter just now and it has actually been alot longer since I've changed it. I looked back at a previous post from Oct 13th and at that point, I stated that it had been 6 weeks since I changed the filter. I'm still using that same filter so in reality, it's been at least 2 months since I changed it.

I always rinse it using the old water I'm removing from the tank. I'm extremely careful not to get any chlorinated water near anything that is going into the tank. My tank filtration is the BioWheel system. From what I understand, that BioWheel wet dry wheel is the main breeding ground for the beneficial bacteria. It is never replaced. Since I completely leave the BioWheel alone, it would seem like that thing would have to be full of good bacteria by now.
When I do the PWC I do one light pass with the gravel vacuum just on the top of the gravel to pick up any fresh poop sitting there.

When I do the PWCs, I use an electric drill with a mixing auger to stir in the dechlorinator, which is the Cycle brand. This method really helps to make sure the new water thats going into the tank is chlorine and chloratamine free. I usually allow the water to rest for 10 min to make sure any chemical traces can evaporate fully. This is probably overkill, but I'm not taking any chances.

The tank is able to convert ammonia very easily, as those readings are usually zero. It's just the **** Nitrites that are killing me. I have heard that salt and Prime can interfere with the process, so I stopped using prime a long time ago, and I only add 1/2 tsp aquarium salt per 5gal bucket.

It seems as though only a miracle from God could get this tank cycled. I used only a tiny amount of loctite waterproof 2 part epoxy to fasten certain parts of my slate rock centerpiece. It's not entirely bonded together, only the parts that did not seem sturdy.

 

[librarygirl]

Prime doesn't interfere with anything, it's a myth. It's actually beneficial to use it b/c it can help detoxify nitrite between water changes and help out your fish. What dechlorinator are you using? You mentioned Cycle -- is that the bacteria in a bottle? If so that could be the source of your nitrite. I'd stop using the CYcle and start using the Prime.

Also how high are your nitrites? 25% water changes per day probably isn't enough. You want nitrites under .25 at all times with fish in the tank. If nitrites are at 1 for example, a 50% water change would only get them down to .5 which is still toxic. Another 50% water change would get them down to .25 which is still borderline, so in all you'd need to do about 4 50% pwc in that day alone for nitrites at 1.

Aquarium salt can help with nitrite poisoning I've heard but I don't know the exact value. After this passes though you probably don't want to add salt anymore as most freshwater fish don't need salt on a regular basis.

 

[Bigbeezy]

I'm using the cycle brand of dechlorinator. It doesnt have any bacteria in it, just a dechlor. I usually do 3 x5gal buckets with each PWC so its between 25% and 50%. I do manage to keep the levels down near 0.5 most of
The time. I'm gonna do a large water change, and then stop feeding for a few days to give the tank some time without water changes or waste being produced.

 

[librarygirl]

I'm using the cycle brand of dechlorinator. It doesnt have any bacteria in it, just a dechlor. I usually do 3 x5gal buckets with each PWC so its between 25% and 50%. I do manage to keep the levels down near 0.5 most of
The time. I'm gonna do a large water change, and then stop feeding for a few days to give the tank some time without water changes or waste being produced.

Sounds good. Just test the water daily anyway and do water changes as needed. Good luck!

 

[Bigbeezy]

Well, it has been 7 days since I started this week long experiment of feeding only once and allowing the tank to have time to get into its groove.

I did a 75% PWC on day 0.
I fed the fish only once, on day 4.
I did one PWC during this past week.

On day 1, my levels were:
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 1.5ppm
Nitrate 10ppm

On Day 3 the levels were
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 4ppm
Nitrate 20ppm

I did a 50% PWC and they were
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 2ppm
Nitrate 10
I fed fish on day 4.

Today, day 7, the levels are
Ammonia 0ppm
Nitrite 1.0ppm
Nitrate 20ppm


How does this look?
Should I feed some more?
Still seems really slow to process Nitrites, as the only reason the Nitrite levels have decreased over the past 3 days is because I did not feed during the first 3 days, so there was a low waste load.
It was really nice only doing 1 PWC this whole week, versus nearly everyday like I have been doing for 3 months!!

 

[librarygirl]

This is not good for your fish I'm sorry to say. You really have to step up your water changes. Allowing nitrite to get over .25 can be detrimental to fish. On day 1, when your nitrite was 1.5 you should have done a few 70% water changes. On day 3, even after the 50% pwc, 2 nitrite is still way too high for fish. I'm not sure who advised you to do less water changes during the nitrite phase but whoever it was doesn't seem to really care about fish's well-being IMO.

The nitrite spike phase can last anywhere from 2-4 weeks on average. During that time, test the water daily, any time nitrite get over .25 do water change(s) to get them as close to 0 as possible. Reducing your feeding apparently isn't helping much; nitrites are going to spike no matter what and you need to do more water changes. Nitrite isn't a result of overfeeding; it's a result of the nitrogen cycle. When your tank is fully cycled and ammonia and nitrite stay at 0 on their own, then you can do a weekly water change; right now, daily ones are very important. Again, on day 7, with nitrite at 1, you'd need to do at least 2 (preferably 3) 50%+ water changes.

 

[Bigbeezy]

This is not good for your fish I'm sorry to say. You really have to step up your water changes. Allowing nitrite to get over .25 can be detrimental to fish. On day 1, when your nitrite was 1.5 you should have done a few 70% water changes. On day 3, even after the 50% pwc, 2 nitrite is still way too high for fish. I'm not sure who advised you to do less water changes during the nitrite phase but whoever it was doesn't seem to really care about fish's well-being IMO.

The nitrite spike phase can last anywhere from 2-4 weeks on average. During that time, test the water daily, any time nitrite get over .25 do water change(s) to get them as close to 0 as possible. Reducing your feeding apparently isn't helping much; nitrites are going to spike no matter what and you need to do more water changes. Nitrite isn't a result of overfeeding; it's a result of the nitrogen cycle. When your tank is fully cycled and ammonia and nitrite stay at 0 on their own, then you can do a weekly water change; right now, daily ones are very important. Again, on day 7, with nitrite at 1, you'd need to do at least 2 (preferably 3) 50%+ water changes.

I'm not trying to poo-poo your advice, but have you read the whole thread from the start? If not, please do because most of any suspicions you may hve would be solved. This process has become insanely non-route for reasons unknown to anyone so far. At this point I've tried everything under the sun. I had been maintaining the Nitrites to low levels for 3 months by daily PWCs, so what im doing currently is a new situation. Right now, it was reccommended that I let the Nitrites spike higher than they have been for a short while to try and jumpstart the bacteria growth.

One thing that has remained constant is that I have been meticuluosly making sure the fish are as comfortable as possible, given their water condition at any time. I have been using salt & prime at appropriate levels at all times. Because of that, the fish has managed to be okay during this long period. They have never shown any signs of stress. They have good gill color, they never appear labored in their breathing, they are swimming around actively and casually, and I've even had a female and male attempt to mate! (Her eggs didn't get fertilized, so they ate them after 2 weeks) I know it sounds awful to talk about a Nitrite level of 4.0, but that was very brief, and there were heavy amounts of prime and salt to help offet. I will plan to do a 50% today, since it has been 4 days since the last.

I have a similar thread going over at Aquariumforum, if you want to check that out. Search for the same thread title.