NKOTB - The Right Stuff???

[VelcroDuck]

As kids, my brother had fish and I had a dog. Now that we are grown and he's my roommate once again, he has gone and bought himself a dog and I have dusted off his old 8gal tall hex aquarium.

Equipment: Penguin Bio-Wheel Mini, Coralife 20w mini CFL, Radiant heater.
Deco: Gravel sub, Red lava rock size of softball, Green ceramic Pagoda my parents bought 20 years ago and never used

I cycled it for a few months, though that was probably unnecessary as the gravel was the same. Plants and fish were added at what, I now realize, was an alarming rate. The fish (all livebearers) all died due to either ich or fungus or overcrowding (or combo), but the plants for the most part hung on. The tank then sat fallow for about 6 months.

Flora: Echinodorus amazonicus (Amazon sword), E. tenellus (Pygmy chain sword), Crinum thaianum (onion), Nymphoides aquatica (banana), hair algae (?).

At the beginning of this month (March 2010), I added 3 Platys [1 red wag f, 1 Mickey Mouse m?, 1 sunset m?](too young to sex or maybe just not looking hard enough), just to see if the tank was up to snuff.
Things were going fine, until I noticed distinct white "pimples" on the Mickey and he (?) started flashing. After failing to combat the ich previously with LBGCPS (local branch of giant corporation pet store) recommended Pimafix and Melafix from Aqua. Pharm. (however, had success with their StressCoat & -Zyme products), I started googling to the depth I should have since inception.
After much research, I am now treating ich by raising temp to 86*F, with the help of my new heater (Marineland Stealth Pro 50w). I've also started adding aquarium salt at the rate of 2g/L or .53g/gal and 25% PWC every other day with gravel vac, making necessary adjustments to salt level. I do not test these levels, but just keep to basic algebra based on the assumption salt is only leaving via the PWC.
"Pimples" have burst, so trying to do PWC daily so I can gravel vac. From now on new fish added will QT in an old 10gal I dug up.

I bought myself the API Master Test Kit, which has been put to good use. Last readings:
Ammo 0
NO2 0
NO3 0
pH 8.2
Don't know exact hardness, but know it's on the harder side. I know pH is high, but starting with tap that is 7.4 and prefer not to bring down chemically. Going to try driftwood eventually if it becomes a problem. Platys seem pretty tolerant though.

Also been learning about food. Old thinking: food is freeze dried or loaded with preservatives, so food my brother fed his fish back in 2005 should still be ok. New thinking: Air degrades nutrients over time, new food is only $2-3 for small container which should last at least 2 months. Result: fish now much more enthused about getting fed and looking healthier.

My main questions/concerns:
1. What appears to be hair algae has wrapped itself around my lava rock. So far it has not caused any problems that I could tell. I have read many articles on how to remove it, but none of them really say why. Is this really a pest in my aquarium? Or just another manageable piece of greenscape?
2. Same question but pertaining to pond snails (at least that's what I think they are, black & clear). Are these guys pests? Or are we talking aesthetics? I've started offering up blanched cucumber for the Platys (which I now know are omnivorous), so a few snails get flung in the compost each time I remove the remains. Also, on fasting day, I noticed one of the platys picking the smaller ones off the glass. I didn't intentionally add either of these species, but does that necessarily make them invasive?
3. Been hearing a lot of things about carbon filters and how often to change them. LFS and LBGCPS both say to change once a month, but then they are the ones selling me the filters. I have heard every other month, every 6 months, once a year... Someone please shed some light! Bought bag, floss, and act. charcoal for DIY filter anyway, but would still prefer not to change out if I don't have to.
4. Have I pretty much maxed out my tank? A lot of contradiction out there as far as limits, but if I go by 1-inch-for-2 gallons rule, then I can only add one more? I was thinking an Oto or two. Or maybe just more livebearers, either bought or "the old fashioned way." I guess I could add one at a time and test for effect. Just didn't want to stress or kill more than I have to.
5. I don't have a lot of ground space due to the vertical design of my tank. However, I would like a bit of carpet cover for what little is exposed. Any suggestions for something that won't go out of control?
6. Shrimp? Cherry or amano I know, but when and how many? Do they count against the inch-per-gallon rule? Again, I don't want anything to suffer unnecessarily because of my learning curve. Again. (sigh)
7. When is your fast day in relation to your weekly PWC?
8. What are alternative uses for my 10gal QT (strange that my QT's bigger than main tank?) while it is not in use for that purpose? If I can keep SOMEthing in there that will not have adverse effect on QT process or be adversely affected by it, I would like to do so.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and for any help or comments.

 

[BigJim]

Welcome to AA!

First thing, if the tank wasn't up and running when you resurrected it, the nitrifying bacteria were dead.

Your pH is fine as is, but I'd try to diagnose what's causing the jump if you're starting with 7.4 tap water. Leave a cup of tap water out overnight to degas and test the pH again. Based on your test results, I would guess your tank is still cycling. Keep a close eye on your parameters and if you see an ammonia spike, you'll need to do daily PWCs.

1. Hair algae is a pain. Remove it if you can.

2. Pond snails are an even bigger pain than hair algae.

3. Don't bother with carbon unless you're trying to remove something like medicine from the water. Carbon doesn't last very long, but it's not necessary either.

4. I'd say you still have some room in your tank, but I'd hold off until you're absolutely sure the tank is cycled and stable. Ich affects stressed fish, so between your ich issues and your tank parameters, I'm guessing your just starting to cycle.

5. I'm not much help here as I haven't tried to carpet anything.

6. Hold off on the shrimp. Shrimp need an established tank with good water quality to survive. When the tank is settled, I'd recommend RCS. The bioload from the shrimp is miniscule, so they don't really count against the "rules". (I think the 1" per gallon rule is a joke. Look at my "My Tanks" list and you'll see what I mean.)

7. I don't really make my fish fast regularly any day. I've never heard the need for that, other than it's good for their digestive systems. I try not to overfeed and I forget to feed the fish once in a while anyways.

8. How do you keep your QT seeded when not in use? Do you run the filter on your display tank? I think I'd set up the tank and keep a fish or two in it. Then, when you bring new stock home, transfer the QT fish to the display and your QT will be ready for your new charges.

Good luck!

 

[melosu58]

I`m moving this to the FW getting started forum more people will see it there. Not everyone comes to the welcome wagon.

 

[jsoong]

5. I don't have a lot of ground space due to the vertical design of my tank. However, I would like a bit of carpet cover for what little is exposed. Any suggestions for something that won't go out of control?

What light you have? Carpet plants need a ton of light, and it is difficult to get enough in a deep tank like a hex.

 

[VelcroDuck]

Fishaholic

"Welcome to AA!"
Man, if I had a nickel ...


Jim,
Thanks for the reply!

Ammonia is consistently low, same with nitrates and nitrites. The 7.4 pH reading was on tap water that had sat out. Even with PWC, tank pH doesn't change much (25% and drops to maybe 8.0) and always seems to revert quickly.
I can't seem to get the answer I'm looking for when it comes to snails and hair algae. Everyone says they're a pain, hard to get rid of. But WHY??? What makes it painful? The actual act of trying to get rid of them? Or does their presence have some sort of negative effect I haven't seen yet? Is there something they do that is detrimental?

As far as the ich goes, the "pimples" are pretty much gone and the flashing is only occasional. I think the heat and salt are working pretty well.

The QT tank is not up and running. In fact it has never been used. QT's a brand new concept to me, so this tank was originally destined for other means. I was going to seed it with gravel and water from the hex. I have an identical Penguin BioWheel Mini for it. I was going to set it up, add a plant or two, and let it sit fallow for a month with no cross contact to ensure the ich has no food.
I like your idea about keeping a fish or two in there, but I was hoping for something I wouldn't have to stress by moving back and forth. What I'm thinking is probably not a fish since it couldn't be vulnerable to whatever the new guy brings in. Maybe just a pipe dream, but seeing what's out there.

Thanks again for the advice. Thanks for the luck too, but hopefully it isn't necessary.

 

[BigJim]

Both hair algae and pond snails will take over the tank. I haven't heard of anyone liking hair algae and very few people enjoying pond snails. The algae may actually block your plants from the light and kill them. The snails just kinda cover everything. I've never seen them do any real damage. It's the removal that's the pain. Every time you think you've succeeded in eradicating either the algae or the snails, more pop up.

If your pH keeps rising constantly in your tank, you've got something in there that's buffering the water. Usually it's your gravel or decorations. If your gravel is limestone, granite, aragonite, or crushed coral, it'll raise your pH. You'll have to do some experimenting to be sure. Put a little gravel in a cup of water. If the pH goes up, it's your gravel. Try all your other suspected sources too and you'll find the culprit. It probably doesn't really matter, but it might be nice to know what's causing the pH rise. I don't really see a need to change anything.

 

[VelcroDuck]

What light you have? Carpet plants need a ton of light, and it is difficult to get enough in a deep tank like a hex.

I listed it with my equipment: Coralife 20w mini CFL
Might have to wait on carpet until I do the inevitable and buy a bigger tank. Hmmm....
Thanks jsoong! Seems like most of what I've learned on here so far comes from you, so I'm honored.

 

[dkpate]

You only need to change your filter media when it's falling apart, or you need to take meds out.
If you are having ammonia problems, you need to do pwc's. Your ammonia and nitrite should be 0, and your nitrate should be between 5 and 40ppm.
What is the pagoda made of?

 

[VelcroDuck]

Both hair algae and pond snails will take over the tank. I haven't heard of anyone liking hair algae and very few people enjoying pond snails. The algae may actually block your plants from the light and kill them.

I think I'm going to construct the snail trap I saw somewhere on here. Got a lot of the algae by hand last night. Is hair algae something an Oto or two would help with? Not anytime soon of course.

If your gravel is limestone, granite, aragonite, or crushed coral, it'll raise your pH.

Like I said, I inherited the gravel, so I have no idea. Could be limestone or granite, but definitely not coral based.

It probably doesn't really matter, but it might be nice to know what's causing the pH rise. I don't really see a need to change anything.

Agreed. Not broken, not fixing it.

You only need to change your filter media when it's falling apart, or you need to take meds out.

I knew it was a LBGCPS conspiracy!

If you are having ammonia problems, you need to do pwc's. Your ammonia and nitrite should be 0, and your nitrate should be between 5 and 40ppm.

I don't think I'm having ammonia problems. It's at 0 pretty steadily, along with nitrates and nitrites, just pH is high. Why do I want that bit of nitrAte?

What is the pagoda made of?

Ceramic? Looks like it's been glazed.

 

[7Enigma]

Couple comments:

-Snails are not bad. If they are multiplying quickly you are over-feeding or you have detritus in the substrate (or are feeding on algae). Cut your light time (say 6 hours a day if you are currently at eight) and start dosing some nitrAte (potassium nitrAte is preferrable). You can crush a couple against the glass to entice the fish if they don't currently see the snails as food.

Flourish Excel is the best semi-safe treatment I've personally used for hair algae (if you mean BBA). It will also help your plants grow as it is a carbon source. But is a sign of nutrient imbalance so it will come back if you don't suppliment with a comprehensive fertilizer.

Complete lack of a nitrogen source in a tank can lead to some VERY bad situations. My puffer tank suffered from a BGA outbreak that was a nightmare to get under control. I believe it was due to no nitrAte from such a low bioload (single dwarf puffer in a 10 gallon tank with live plants).

HTH

 

[dkpate]

Nitrate is the good bacteria that "eats" the ammonia and nitrite. So you do want some in there. Unless you have a ton of plants or something, then I think you don't have readings for it. I think I read that somewhere, someone correct me if I am wrong!

 

[BigJim]

Nitrate is the waste product of the bacteria that eat nitrite. The actual bacteria name is something in Latin that I don't really care to look up right now. The presence of nitrate shows the tank is cycled. Plants will soak it up, but you still want some in the tank or you'll end up with a blue-green algae breakout.

 

[jsoong]

I listed it with my equipment: Coralife 20w mini CFL
Might have to wait on carpet until I do the inevitable and buy a bigger tank. Hmmm....
Thanks jsoong! Seems like most of what I've learned on here so far comes from you, so I'm honored.

Thanks for the kind comments! But there are people far more knowledgeable than me on this site ...

Sorry didn't noticed the light listed on the top of the post ... Anyways, 20W over an 8 Gal is not a lot of light. <The WPG type calculation breaks down in small tanks, and you need something like 40-50W over that tank to be considered high light.> Without high light & CO2, most of the carpet plants don't do well. Some people use Java moss as a bit of a carpet look, but that is definitely not "not messy".

It is generally better to get the tank under control (nutrient balanced, not a lot of algae, etc.) before attempting carpet plants, so it might be wise for you to wait a bit on the more demanding plants. OTOH - I don't like to discourage people from trying things, so if you really want to try it, go right ahead, just keep realistic expectations.

RE: the thread algae ... if that is long green coarse threads - that is green thread algae. I don't have luck eradicating that with Excel. They are fairly easily removed manually, but comes back within a day or two. For Black Bread Algae, Excel ("overdose") is a good choice. <Note that some plants may be killed by Excel.> The ultimate algae control in a planted tank is a balance of light, plant & nutrients (nitrogen, potassium & phosphorus + traces.).

 

[jsoong]

One comment on the QT tank ... You don't have to have it running to have an instantly cycled setup. If you keep the QT's filter running in your main tank with your main filter (or just the filter pad in the main's filter), you will have a cycled tank just by transferring the filter (pad) to the QT.

This might not be practical in a small tank (not enough room), plus there is always the temptation to keep a 2nd or 3rd tank running with some fish you like .....

 

[sieski]

I knew it was a LBGCPS conspiracy!

No the filter media i.e the sponge can be left till it is falling apart. The carbon has a life of roughly a month. If you use it to remove medicines then it needs to be replaced after that is done regardless of if its a month or less.

Carbon isn't needed, if just helps stop the smell building up in the water, no problem if you have a hood. I have also read that carbon takes some trace elements out of the water that the plants need.

 

[7Enigma]

Nitrate is the good bacteria that "eats" the ammonia and nitrite. So you do want some in there. Unless you have a ton of plants or something, then I think you don't have readings for it. I think I read that somewhere, someone correct me if I am wrong!

BigJim spelled it out but I wanted to reiterate so the OP doesn't get into trouble. Having NO nitrAte in the tank is not good. There is bacteria that can fix atmospheric nitrogen and use that as a nitrogen source. We sometimes call these bacteria blue-green algae (BGA) but they are really cyanobacteria; a slimy blue-green colored smelly organism that can take over a tank in short order when conditions are right. They can then use the other nutrients in the water that plants cannot due to lack of nitrogen. Most times BGA is caused by dead spots where water flow is poor and so nitrogen is locally depleted and can be fixed with increasing flow in that area. But if it's due to complete lack of nitrogen it can be tank-wide and very difficult to get rid of (see my posts about it in my puffer tank).

So in low-bioload or heavily planted tanks we recommend dosing a small amount of nitrAte to prevent the complete bottoming out and problems this can cause.

HTH

 

[dkpate]

Did you guys miss the quotation marks???

 

[VelcroDuck]

-Snails are not bad. If they are multiplying quickly you are over-feeding or you have detritus in the substrate (or are feeding on algae). Cut your light time (say 6 hours a day if you are currently at eight) and start dosing some nitrAte (potassium nitrAte is preferrable). You can crush a couple against the glass to entice the fish if they don't currently see the snails as food.

I'm going with the idea that I'll try to get as many as I can, but won't stress over it if a few pop up here and there. I cut light as recommended. Looking to dose nitrAte ASAHP.

Complete lack of a nitrogen source in a tank can lead to some VERY bad situations. My puffer tank suffered from a BGA outbreak that was a nightmare to get under control. I believe it was due to no nitrAte from such a low bioload (single dwarf puffer in a 10 gallon tank with live plants).

Well, my last water test shows trace amounts of nitrAte. What are early detection signs of BGA?

Thanks for the kind comments! But there are people far more knowledgeable than me on this site ...

Not to detract from the compliment, but what I meant was the stuff that's new to me, a lot came from your writings. Besides, being "knowledgeable" and being able to make your knowledge accessible are two different qualities in my book.

I don't like to discourage people from trying things, so if you really want to try it, go right ahead, just keep realistic expectations.

I appreciate that. But my realistic expectations are to deal with the problems I have now and "experiment" later. Like I said, I'm probably going to make that next step and get a bigger tank, but that's way down the line. I don't see a point in investing in higher lighting and a CO2 system on 8 gallons and $3 fish. "Baby steps."

They are fairly easily removed manually, but comes back within a day or two. For Black Bread Algae, Excel ("overdose") is a good choice. <Note that some plants may be killed by Excel.> The ultimate algae control in a planted tank is a balance of light, plant & nutrients (nitrogen, potassium & phosphorus + traces.).

Shooting for that last one. Have been removing manually. I noticed that since then, my nitrAtes have gone up slightly. Was that what might have been sucking it all up?

One comment on the QT tank ... You don't have to have it running to have an instantly cycled setup.

Thanks to everyone who gave great ideas on the QT, but unfortunately the dog knocked it over and now there's a couple of cracks. I started looking for another, but figured might as well take this opportunity to look into upgrading the main tank and making the hex my QT.

Carbon isn't needed, if just helps stop the smell building up in the water, no problem if you have a hood. I have also read that carbon takes some trace elements out of the water that the plants need.

I still say it's a conspiracy because they only sell carbon filters to you. The bulk floss was practically hidden. When I asked "Is carbon really necessary?" they get a sheepish look, then go into automaton mode. "Yes. Very necessary."

Most times BGA is caused by dead spots where water flow is poor and so nitrogen is locally depleted and can be fixed with increasing flow in that area. But if it's due to complete lack of nitrogen it can be tank-wide and very difficult to get rid of (see my posts about it in my puffer tank).

So in low-bioload or heavily planted tanks we recommend dosing a small amount of nitrAte to prevent the complete bottoming out and problems this can cause.

HTH

I believe I have really good water flow throughout the tank. It's a pretty small tank, so it's hard for it not to. I also have a lot of aeration, which I know affects CO2 levels. Any other downside?
Any suggestions on source of Potassium Nitrate? I'll read up on it, but if someone has a best bet, I appreciate it.
Thanks to all of you. BigJim & dkpate, despite the fact that I didn't respond to your posts directly, I appreciate your contributions and clarifications.

 

[7Enigma]

Well, my last water test shows trace amounts of nitrAte. What are early detection signs of BGA?
I believe I have really good water flow throughout the tank. It's a pretty small tank, so it's hard for it not to. I also have a lot of aeration, which I know affects CO2 levels. Any other downside?

Have been removing manually. I noticed that since then, my nitrAtes have gone up slightly. Was that what might have been sucking it all up?

Any suggestions on source of Potassium Nitrate? I'll read up on it, but if someone has a best bet, I appreciate it.

I just threw all of your comments in a jumble so bear with me.

Early signs of BGA are small dark dots that slowly grow into sheets. They come off relatively easily and are slimy and smell really bad. They are tough to spot when just beginning but if you ever see something and say, "What's that?" come post a pic or a detailed description and someone here can help. You want to catch this before it becomes widespread, and as long as you get the potassium in the near future you should be OK.

The fact that you have a lot of aeration is good. Probably a reason why you don't have BGA yet (if you have been deficient in nitrAte for a while).

The removal of the algae is most definitely a possible cause for increased nitrAte levels. While most algae prefer ammonia I'm sure they can use nitrAte in a less efficient manner. By removing the algae from the tank you remove some of that sponge that is soaking up what little is there. Once you get some potassium the plants will be able to out-compete the algae and you can find that happy medium that we all strive for with planted tanks.

There are several places you can buy dry ferts. If you do a search in the planted forum you will find several different places but off the top of my head you can order from here:

Fertilizers For The Planted Tank | Ferts

If you plan on going with a larger tank or higher light in the future the combo pack is a great way to get all the ferts you need now (they won't go bad if you store them in a cool dry place). Most of the times shipping is as expensive if not more than a single fert so it makes sense to get them all at once. In case you want to go with individual ones I highly recommend the CSM+B, potassium nitrAte, and potassium sulfate. Potassium phosphate is also recommended if your water doesn't have phosphate in it (mine does). Magnesium sulfate is Epsom salt so you can buy that in bulk at the grocery store. So basically just buy the combo pack.

 

[VelcroDuck]

Early signs of BGA are small dark dots that slowly grow into sheets. They come off relatively easily and are slimy and smell really bad. They are tough to spot when just beginning but if you ever see something and say, "What's that?" come post a pic or a detailed description and someone here can help. You want to catch this before it becomes widespread, and as long as you get the potassium in the near future you should be OK.

A little paranoia setting in... I see something that might be what you're talking about, but digi cam's on the fritz at the moment. What's the near future? The guy on the site you provided is pretty clear on his payment page not to rush him. (Did he maybe sell soup on Seinfeld previously?) I know where he's coming from, unfortunately...

If you plan on going with a larger tank or higher light in the future the combo pack is a great way to get all the ferts you need now (they won't go bad if you store them in a cool dry place). Most of the times shipping is as expensive if not more than a single fert so it makes sense to get them all at once. In case you want to go with individual ones I highly recommend the CSM+B, potassium nitrAte, and potassium sulfate. Potassium phosphate is also recommended if your water doesn't have phosphate in it (mine does). Magnesium sulfate is Epsom salt so you can buy that in bulk at the grocery store. So basically just buy the combo pack.

Man, shouldn't have napped in BioChem so much. Which of those things will I be using for this tank (possibly/probably/inevitably), other than the KNO3?