Oh No!!!! Another Cycling Thread...

[audiophile42]

Hello all,
I've been lurking this forum for about a month, and have learned a TON. I did my research before I started buying stuff, and planned out my cycle and stock. I've got a 50gal, with two Aqua Clear 70/300s.

I set it up two weeks ago (2-10). A friend directed me to this site when I started researching, and also gave me something to jump-start my cycle. It some AQ 110 bio-media from a well established 125g.So I've got a clean tank, check, two good filters, check, established media with bacteria some gravel from it too boot, check, 10% pure ammonia from ace, check, and an AP master test kit. So I got all the things necessary to start the cycle.

When I started, I accidently dosed too high, around 7ppm ammonia. After a few days, that started to go down. Within a week, my tank was chewing through about 3ppm a day, and nitrItes were climbing fast. They got, really, really high, maxed on the test kit. I let it sit for a few days, and made sure that ammonia was around 2-3ppm to keep the bacteria alive. The nitrites didn't show any sign of coming down, and nitrates were really high too (hard to judge different shades of red on AP kit). So I hopped on a few forums, including my favorite AA , and figured I needed to do a pwc. Originally I did two 40% pwc's, and the nitrAtes came down, but the nitrItes were still way up there. So over the past few days, I've done several BFWC (think of the BFG, then you'll get what it means....), around 80-90%. The last time I did it, I got nitrItes down to .5ppm. I've kept the ammonia around 2ppm for the past week. I come home from school today, and my nitrItes are up at 2-3ppm already.

I know everyone says patience is the key to doing the fishless cycle. I did my research, set it up properly, and used a bunch of established media. My ammonia to nitrite bacteria are just chewing through the stuff (dose 2-3ppm in the morning, down to .5ppm in the afternoon), but my nitrite to nitrates seem to be lagging HORRIBLY. It's been two weeks since I started my cycle with lots of established media, and my nitrite to nitrate bacteria still aren't keeping up. I've read that high nitrite and nitrate levels can inhibit bacteria growth, so that's why I did all those pwc's and bfwc's. I thought that two weeks with established media is on the long side, so I decided to post my situation on here. I'm not a person wanting to start a tank and throw fish in immediatly. I've been researching non stop, have learned a LOT, and have been patient setting things up and planning.But I'm at a loss as to why these nitrites aren't going to nitrates quicker.

Once again, I want to say thanks to all the people on this forum, it has tons of useful information and is very accepting (where-as someothers just link to the search button...). BTW, just in case you were wondering, I'm setting up an african tank with 3-4 clown loaches and a bristlenose pleco. If anyone is interested, I can upload some pics of my fishless tank. All my friends and family don't understand cycling (although I've explained it to them several times), and are joking that I'm keeping pet water and pet rock. I'll show them.... they'll be jealous.... soon enough.... Anyway, back to the point. If ANYONE could help me with my current situation, offer any advice or insight, I would be very grateful. Thanks in advance,

 

[rich311k]

Two weeks is not that long. I would just let it be at least another week before doing anything. You may be pleasantly surprised. By the way what is your PH?

 

[audiophile42]

Right now, my ph is around 7.9-8.0. My tap is around 7.6, but when I initially filled up the tank it shot up to like 8.5. I'm guessing it was just some minerals from rocks I have in the tank. I know that two weeks is barely anything with fresh cycle tank, but with established bacteria I thought it would be getting close. I had my nitrite spike around 5 days ago, and it's still not processing it as much as the ammonia to nitrite bacteria are. Does anyone have any thoughts on my levels pre-water changes. I had to do so many to bring it down to readable levels, I don't know what happened. I can be, and am patient, I just want to make sure that nothing is wrong, and possibly have an ETA on when these nitrItes will go down.

 

[brant]

Welcome to AA. What are the nitrates on your tap water? What is your KH and GH ? Do you have any plants? Is your tap water municipal or well water?

 

[Macrosill]

Everything seems to be on track right now. I am currently cycling a 55 gal fw tank. I have been at it for over 3 weeks and am now just getting to the NitrIte spike. Just hang in there. The cycle will happen. Just remember the second half of the cycle takes longer than the 1st.

Pics of your pet water and pet rocks would be welcomed.

Good Luck,
Brian

 

[Macrosill]

sorry, double post

 

[audiophile42]

I just tested the nitrates from the tap again, and I get no reading, so it must be 0 or maybe 1ppm. My tap is municipal, and I tested it initially when I got the test kit, 0 amm nitrite and nitrate. I don't have a kh or gh test kit. No plants in the aquarium. I got some pool filter sand, thouroughly cleaned it, and used it as substrate. I've got some rocks I picked up from the LFS, then some other rocks I got from a friend. I cleaned all the rocks, hosed them off with hot water, scrubbed them, put the small ones in a pot of boiling water, sprayed boiling water on the big ones, then scrubbed them again. I've also got a piece of driftwood, and I boiled that too. I also picked up some cathodes, and gutted an old snes power brick for some mock-moonlighting. I've got some pics of it....

I've read that nitrite spikes can last a long time with some fresh fishless cycles, but what about seeded ones?

 

[7Enigma]

I'd try to get that pH back down (with a single large PWC). Both types of bacteria are VERY different in terms of conditions for growth rate. Off the top of my head I cannot remember the specifics (I'll find it for you on Monday since I have the data on my desk), but I do know that the nitrIte to nitrAte bacteria takes about twice the amount of time to multiply as does the ammonia to nitrIte bacteria.

Also remember that bacteria double their population at every division. This causes it to be terribly slow at the beginning (1 to 2 to 4 to 8 to 16, etc...), but once in a large population it just screams (1million, 2 million, 4 million, 8 million, 16 million, etc....).

In my tank I had a similar case, my ammonia converting bacteria were doing great very quickly, and it felt like forever for the nitrIte converting bacteria to get to sufficient numbers. Do try to keep the amount of nitrIte in the tank down to accurately detectable levels (less than 2ppm IMO), but try not to do too many PWC's as you will lose some bacteria at each change (so if you test one day and its off the chart, wait a day or two and then do a large PWC to get to detectable levels). You can lighten up a bit with the addition of ammonia (say 1-1.5ppm ammonia every 12-24hours instead of the 2-3ppm) to prevent going off the chart too fast (then after you have a good stock of nitrIte to nitrAte bacteria you can dose back at 2-3ppm and since the bacteria are doubling they can VERY quickly jump back to a good number). You'll be surprised how quickly once you detect lowering of nitrIte, you jump straight to nitrAte.

Oh, and 2 things you can do during this time period is to jack up the tank temp to the mid-high 80's and add extra oxygen (through slightly lower water level in the tank so the waterfall from your filters agitates the water more, or adding an air stone). Unlike most fish which could tolerate this (but not prefer it), bacteria metabolize and divide quicker with increased temperature (up to a point). You want the tank perameters to be optimal for the bacteria at this point and not for fish, so as much oxygen/temp/consistent supply of food/ideal pH will speed up their growth.

Your tank looks great!

justin

 

[audiophile42]

Thanks,
Originally my ph shot up to like 8.5, but it's been around 7.9-8.0 for the past week or so. Isn't that around the optimum spot for africans? Or do bacteria grow faster at something lower? I've got the temp around 83 right now. You can't see it in the pic, but I've got a 36" weighted bubble wall on the back with a rena 200 pushing it. That combined with the two AQ70/300s, the water is moving pretty good up top.

 

[7Enigma]

I'm not sure on proper pH for africans, but right now your trying to get the bacteria to multiply as fast as possible. I definately don't recommend adding any chemicals to lower the pH, but if your tap water is 7.6 a large PWC should take the tank pH close to that number. pH is a logarithmic scale, so a pH of 8 is 5 TIMES more basic than 7.5. For single cell organisms such as bacteria, they have no buffered protection against the pH and things such as division can be drastically slowed or stopped if it gets too far in either direction.

 

[7Enigma]

I found the website! A must read for EVERYONE IMO.

http://www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

From the site (I added the italics for clarification):

pH

The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.

The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5 (this is the nitrIte to nitrAte bacteria)

Nitrobacter will grow more slowly at the high pH levels typical of marine aquaria and preferred by African Rift Lake Cichlids. Initial high nitrite concentrations may exist. At pH levels below 7.0, Nitrosomonas will grow more slowly and increases in ammonia may become evident.

 

[audiophile42]

Wow! Great read, lots of good info. I had no idea that the two types of bacteria had different ideal conditions for growth. I'll do another big pwc late tonight or early tomorrow. If I was to get the ph down closer to the ideal for the nitrobacter, should I just throw some crushed coral into a mesh bag, then into the filter to get it back up?

Another question - unrelated to the fishless cycle. As I said earlier, I've got a bubble wall on the back. When I first hooked it up, the air immediatly shot into the intakes on the filters, DUH! Not good, so I bent the bubble wall so that no air bubble get too close to the intakes. But in doing this, the distribution is not even. Crazy, I know, but it bugs me. Any suggestions as too how I could stop bubbles from getting into the filter while keeping the wall on the back?

 

[7Enigma]

Well if your pH is going up on its own, it could very well be from the substrate/rocks/decorations in the tank. I would wait and keep an eye on the pH when the cycle is almost completed. If you see the pH going back up and stabalizing I wouldn't add anything, if it stays at your tap water pH then you might need to add some coral.

As for the bubble issue, I've got nothing.

 

[TomK2]

Well, I think you are adding too much ammonia daily. Your nitrifying bacteria will grow with very low levels of ammonia and nitrite, as is evidenced by the fact that they do quite nicely with undetectable levels after the cycle is over. By adding 3ppm daily, you are causing an very large nitrite mountain for your bacteria to overcome. If you were to maintain your tank on 0.5 to 1 ppm of ammonia each day, then the nitrite would not climb so fast that you need a huge amount of bacteria to deal with it.

3 ppm of ammonia is a "de-facto" level that fishless cyclers have settled upon as a level that does not impair the cycle but hopefully increases the bacterial growth rate. So far, I am not aware of anyone doing a "dose response study" to determine the relative time of cycling with different doses of ammonia. 1ppm could be almost as fast as 3 ppm, won't know until someone tests it. I actually started this test twice, but then a need for the tanks pops up and I ended the test prematurely. Oh well. Once your ammonia eaters have increased enough to get the ammonia to zero, they do not need the 3ppm a day to continue growing. But each ppm of ammonia becomes a ppm of nitrite for the slower growing nitrite eaters, so by continuing to use a large daily ammonia dose you are garuanteeing that you will have a longer nitrite phase.

But it sounds like you are doing a great job! Don't worry about the pH.