Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Freshwater > Freshwater & Brackish - Getting Started
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 12-24-2006, 04:04 AM   #1
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 58
Partial Water changes Re: Too Clean?

Im just looking for some opens on this matter.
I just recently had 10 rainbow cichlids, they were on loan from a local breeder to help me cycle a new 32 gallon tank.
The ph of the tank is a consistent 7.2 thanks to a layer of peat under the gravel
The Ammonia is 0 ppm
The Nitrites are 0 ppm
The temperature is a constant 79 degrees
I tend to do PWC's every 4 days on all of my tanks using a good dechlorinator when the fresh goes in. The average amount of water I tend to change is 30-40%.
Aquarium salt is added 1 tbsp per 5 gallons once a month.
All of my other fish thrive on this, including another 15 gallon tank that was started about the same time.
The cichlids for the most part 75% LOVED it and immediately went into a breeding wiggle within a week.
3 Outright died after seeming to gasp for air on the bottom of the tank.
I asked the Breeder about what could have possibly gone wrong, his answer was that the water was too clean. Too clean? That just dosent seem right. What do you think?
__________________

__________________
fynnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2006, 06:11 AM   #2
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 178
geez...too clean? I'm no genious, and I sure don't know everything about aquariums, but too clean? That seems a little week.

Are you using Ammo Lock or something similar to "bypass" the cycle? I'm guessing you're not, but just checking.

I don't do salt in my tanks, but out of curiosity, why are you adding salt once a month when you're doing PWC's 3 times a fortnight? In my head, I'm thinking that by the time you add salt, you've got nothing left in your tank, since your PWC has removed it all, with doing it like 8 times a month. I may be totally wrong on this, but wouldn't you add salt at every change? For every 5g added, 1 tbsp added, at every PWC? Please, somebody educate me. My guess is something about salt content going wrong, but I know I'm off on this.

Another question from me...are cichlids a good choice for a fish cycle? I'm biased, yes...I don't like a fish cycle, I don't think it's right, and I don't think there's any reason to not do a fishless cycle, but that's just me. I'm a cranky old pr$#k. I'm guessing you've had this for a while, as you say you're adding salt every month, so your cycle is complete. Did the breeder load you any seed material?

Is your tank planted?
__________________

__________________
supermazz9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2006, 10:15 AM   #3
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Fishyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 11,964
The salt isn't needed at all unless you have brackish fish and are using marine salt. But if they are FW fish and you are using aquarium salt, it's not needed at all.

Their is such a thing as "too clean". If the fish were coming from 160 Nitrates and put in 0 Nitrates, it can cause shock. But that is if they are using to living in high Nitrates.

Did you put all those cichlids in that tank at the same time?
__________________
Vote for Aquarium Advice

29 Gallon Lake Malawi Fry
55 Gallon Community
150 Gallon Lake Malawi Cichlid
Fishyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2006, 10:57 AM   #4
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Clearwater, FL
Posts: 1,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermazz9
I don't do salt in my tanks, but out of curiosity, why are you adding salt once a month when you're doing PWC's 3 times a fortnight? In my head, I'm thinking that by the time you add salt, you've got nothing left in your tank, since your PWC has removed it all, with doing it like 8 times a month. I may be totally wrong on this, but wouldn't you add salt at every change? For every 5g added, 1 tbsp added, at every PWC? Please, somebody educate me. My guess is something about salt content going wrong, but I know I'm off on this.
That was my thought also. This method would result in highly fluctuating salt content not a stable salt content and as we know, stability is often the key to success in this hobby.
__________________
35G barebottom: 2 boesemani rainbowfish, 4 congo tetras, Low light plants (1.5wpg) attached to or planted in my own handmade ceramics - Anubia v Nana, Anubia v Barteri, Red Rubin Sword
2.5G - Spot (beautiful betta - Soft pink with red spots on his fins. Java Moss.
joannde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2006, 03:23 AM   #5
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Australia Mate!
Posts: 80
I do use salt. I'm in a hot tropical area and without salt I have an instant fungal problem. But with salt you need to keep the concentration consistent. If you do a PWC then you add the amount of salt needed for that amount of new water. You can't do a PWC every 4 days and then arbitrarily add salt once per month. You would have no idea of what salt concentration you had.

Now here we are talking about cichlids, which will likely need even more care in keeping the water in appropriate concentrations - lake salts, etc...

No such thing as too clean as far as I'm concerned. The only issues cycling a tank would be ammonia and nitrite levels. You keep up with that by testing and pwc. It almost sounds like the fish were gasping due to ammonia or nitrite, but the tests were negative... Correct?

As for fishy cycling. Well if you must do it then start with a small number of fish. They might as well be whatever you plan on keeping. You can gradually build up numbers as the tank matures...

In this case there is another tank. The new tank would be best started with seed bacteria from the other tank. Move over as much filter media and gravel as you dare. You can remove half the bacteria media in an established tank and it will have a little minicycle and back to normal in a day. That media would be a big help in another tank.
__________________
amosf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 05:47 PM   #6
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 58
The aquarium that I added the loaners into was just right at the beginning, and needed to cycle. I was going to go the fishless cycle, but got talked into taking these fish home. And in truth told I felt sorry for them there was about 50 stuffed into a 33 gallon tank ( all were about 4 inches long). Their water looked like sh*t and was full of their own wastes. I cant admit that I wasnt also excited about getting to know a different type of fish for free.
The tank I added them into at home was stuffed with seeded materials from established tanks the media from a couple of HOB filters went into the new HOB, 3 cups of gravel , and decor brought from a very old tank.
I have up to this point only been adding the aquarium salt once a month to make sure that the concentrations didnt get too high, although it makes sense now to add it at every change, and will do that now. One lesson learned.
__________________
fynnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 05:58 PM   #7
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
JDogg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Rapid City, SD
Posts: 2,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by fynnie
I have up to this point only been adding the aquarium salt once a month to make sure that the concentrations didnt get too high, although it makes sense now to add it at every change, and will do that now. One lesson learned.
why are you adding it at all?
__________________
Just because I am working at Petco does not mean I am a sell out, they are still an evil empire, that I am trying to make better.
75 Gallon: New World Cichlids|26 Gallon Bowfront: Planted Angelfish/Swordtail Tank|20 Gallon Long: "Nano" non-reef|10 Gallon: frog and mosquito fish
JDogg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 08:11 PM   #8
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 58
I am adding salt ( aquarium) because I was told it was better for any fish to have the benefits it offered ( ie: making less work for their kidneys) But then that was from my LFS and some of the advice I have had from there has sucked in the past.
__________________
fynnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2006, 08:41 PM   #9
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Fishyfanatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 11,964
I would stop using the salt. I used it all the time at the beginning but stopped using it after advice from fellow AAers. I honestly did not see a change at all in my fish.
__________________
Vote for Aquarium Advice

29 Gallon Lake Malawi Fry
55 Gallon Community
150 Gallon Lake Malawi Cichlid
Fishyfanatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 02:23 PM   #10
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Nebraska, USA
Posts: 6,703
its not the salt. if this is a new tank, that you're cycling, you cannot possibly have no ammonia or nitrite.
what are your nitrates at? if they are also 0ppm, then you have a faulty test kit.

gasping at the surface means there's either not enough oxygen in the water, or, ammonia poisoning is suffocating the fish...or...nitrite poisoning is ruining the fishes ability to pull oxygen out of the water and into the bloodstream so they again are suffocating.

it could be not enough surface agitation, so not enough oxygen in the water...but I'd pretty much put money on one of your test kits not showing that you have dangerous levels of ammonia and/or nitrite. if the fish gills seem red with inflammation, its probably nitrite related.
__________________
Former advisor and planted tank geek...life's moved on though.
malkore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2006, 04:55 PM   #11
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 58
I have returned the fish to the breeder, and I would say about 1/4 of the fish in their tank were gasping too, The gills however werent red. Neither were the loaners.
I do have a pretty good amount of oxygen agitation in the tank with a air stone, a bubble wall and a sponge biological filter.
Just as a check I took a sample into a chain type LPS and the ph measured 7.2, the amonia wasnt readable and neither were the nitrites, but the nitrates were coming up.
Not to clear myself of doubt in my fish wrangling but I am wondering if these fish that died were doomed from the start. I mentioned before that the tank they came from was none too clean and was stuffed with fish. When I did return the fish to the breeders I really had a good look at them. Many had deformities of the eyes and fins. One had its tail chew right off. As well I counted 15 laying on the bottom gasping in obvious distress. Two were being consumed post mortem. Really gross. And I asked about salt as I had been told there to add salt as well, and the answer I got was to just use coarse pickling salt as aquarium salt was too expensive.
I am beginning to think that even though I did use the fish to cycle the tank, ( something I will never do again, too hard on my concience.) Maybe these fish were already badly stressed and it was just too much for them to handle.
__________________
fynnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2006, 01:40 AM   #12
Aquarium Advice Activist
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishyfanatic
Their is such a thing as "too clean". If the fish were coming from 160 Nitrates and put in 0 Nitrates, it can cause shock. But that is if they are using to living in high Nitrates.
Is this really true? I'm thinking to myself that if I lived in a room that had a high (insert bad gas) content and all of a sudden it got vented and the room was now full of clean fresh air, I might be shocked that someone was nice enough to do that for me, but I don't think I'd go into shock. Of course, I'm not a fish.

What's a typical nitrate toxic level anyway?

That being said, it's still kinda irrevelant, since he's been doing PWC's all along. His tank has always been clean. The only shock his fish would likely have recieved would be due to transport and reacclimation.

I'm interested in a response about the nitrates, seeing as I don't buy this too clean thing. Yah, stability is one thing, like when you're talking about pH, or the like, but nitrates? The nitrates fluctuate all the time in my tank with PWC's.
__________________

__________________
supermazz9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
clean, partial water change, water changes

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Partial water changes sieski Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 3 07-07-2009 07:06 PM
Partial Water Changes sprout18 Freshwater & Brackish - Getting Started 3 02-07-2009 11:20 AM
partial water change choupic Saltwater & Reef - Getting Started 10 05-24-2006 10:56 AM
I am addicted to partial water changes thefishguy Saltwater Reef Aquaria 16 02-05-2006 01:27 PM
Partial Water Changes and their Frequency Cooter Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 6 01-16-2006 12:53 PM







» Photo Contest Winners







All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.