http://youtu.be/ZKS0CQG-9P8 Video showing angels darting and clamping. I've received excellent help from your team, and am so grateful for your advise! Thank you (and your team) for taking the time to help us beginners! On to the issues: I have a 30 gallon marineland bio-wheel 150 tall tank with 5 juvenile angelfish (blushing golden marvel/koi veil mix, silver clown, 3-stripe, zebra lace, and the most beautiful black marble). Their only tank mate is an algae eater. They come from an out-of-town reputable store that has healthy fish, and I quarantined them a week anyways. They were perfect when I got them, so the problems are my fault. I added a sponge filter, driftwood and live plants over the past month with no problems. My issues are: ammonia due to a mini-cycle caused by medicating a sick angle, too high ph (and fluctuations due to me trying to fix it), and now my favorite big black angle (along with the others, but not to the extent of his symptoms) is darting, clamping and twisting his top dorsal fin and shimmying once in a while. He also had a hole in his top fin this morning, which healed by evening using melafix and pimafix. . Here are my questions: 1. I have tried everything to rid this tank of ammonia (which is even worse at my high ph), including: daily water changes with prime, adding live plants, daily stability dose, adding the nitra-zorb filter insert and feeding less. Nothing seems to get the cycle going again. Some say the prime is stalling the cycle, but I won't leave them unprotected. The ammonia is 1 (AFTER A WATER CHANGE) based on the liquid api test, and .002 ppm on the seachem ammonia alert that shows the true ammonia after prime. So, the poor things still feel it. I purchased tetra safe start with bio spira. I called the company, and was told I could not use prime, or do any water changes for 14 days if I wanted it to work. Should I use this product? If so, what am I supposed to do if the ammonia hits 2 and they are freaking? If I do not use this product, how can I re-cycle this tank? I forgot to mention, I cycled the tank 3 months ago with stability. Stability is not helping at all now (I've used it for 4 days now after daily wc). I am so frustrated. These are my babies and I can't stand watching them dart around twisting fins! 2. To make matters worse, my bf just pointed out that while I make sure the temp and RO/tap measure is the same on my replacement water, I wasn't checking the new replacement water's ph, before adding it to the tank. This is probably why my fish clamp fins, shimmy, etc right after water changes. Either way, using the RO/tap mix, my ph is always 7.8 during the day, and 8-8.2 in the middle of the night (I test when they start acting funny.) tonight is the worst I've ever seen my black. He won't go to sleep, just keeps darting (about half an inch as if surprised) with his dorsal twisted. I feel so helpless. I don't want to stress him more by changing more water, and I don't even know if I'm right (that the ph and ammonia are causing this). Back to the questions: how can I stabilize a lower ph in hard water? I lowered kh with RO water, but it still rises at night and goes back down in the morning. So, they're miserable, stressed and susceptible to disease every night. I can't go through watching another fish get sick and die, so I'm doing my best to prevent this. Sorry this is so long, I'm so upset! Here's a short question summary: 1. Does bio-spira work, and what do you do if ammonia spikes during the 14 days? 2. What other way can I rid the tank of ammonia (and then nitrites) aside from water changes? The fish hate water changes because the new water fluctuates the ph, and doesn't even seem to bind all of the ammonia. 3. What's the easiest, best way to lower AND STABILIZE ph so the angels are more comfortable, and ammonia isn't so harmful? 4. 2 fish have white poop, but a breeder told me it is probably due to ammonia. I am VERY afraid of medicating, but don't want sick fish left untreated. 5. Could the shimmying, darting, fin clamping, etc be due to something other than ammonia and ph issues? 6. Kind of off the subject, but I am only using regular lights for my 3 small live plants. I bought sylvania spot-gro 50w to set on top of the tank (my tank model does not allow different bulbs to be hooked in), but it got hot, and the fish seemed unhappy, so I turned it off after 10 min. I know I need to get flourish and co2, but will regular light be ok? And is this all really helping my babies? Thank you so much for helping me! I am a nervous wreck watching him dart around, and I'm terrified to use this safestart. Please get back to me ASAP, as I'm sitting on pins and needles not knowing what to do. I'm a member of many forums, but the different opinions and information confuses me, and I end up making mistakes. I'm about to upgrade to a 55 gal tall, but I'm having so many issues, I keep wondering if I'm not capable of caring for fish! Kelly
Please help my angels....
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Fishperson
Aquarium Advice Addict
I don't know much about diseases but using API stress coat as a dechlorinator during water changes should help calm them down. And using tetra blackwater extract should help your plants, lower the ph (I think), and relax the fish. Just put lots of cover in there for them. But I can't help you with the biospira, sorry.
ocean
Aquarium Advice FINatic
Don't mess with the pH, a stable pH is better, most fish adapt just fine. Do daily or more water changes til the Ammonia reads 0 and add prime. Don't over feed and don't add anymore products to try and fix your aquarium water, and don't overfeed.
Fishperson
Aquarium Advice Addict
Okay, I'm back. I had to leave for dinner so I left some stuff out on my post. Also, lower the water level to increase aeration. If I were you, I would also add some more stem plants. They can reduce ammonia levels. If you have carbon in your filter the blackwater extract won't work. Driftwood should help lower ph as well. I would try not to add ph changing stuff in, except for driftwood and the extract. I think a silent cycle is a good option for you, I would do some research on that.
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
Honestly, I would put my money on the issues being caused by stress. I've said this multiple times before but stop fiddling with your pH. Period. You average an 8.4 pH with tap water if memory serves. I found a successful angelfish breeder that keeps their angels at an 8.5ph with hard water. If they can breed with 8.5 then your angels will be perfectly fine at 8.4
Angelfish FAQ
That is the link to it.
When you dilute your tap water with ro/di water you remove the buffering capabilities of that water which is directly causing larger pH swings between your day/night cycle. In effect with the frequent water changes and underbuffered water you are putting your angels through CONSTANT pH swings which is incredibly stressful on fish.
Seachem's prime will fix the ammonia / nitrite for up to 48 hours detoxifying it. I would use that to help control the ammonia. As for using a chemical to help jumpstart the cycle, I haven't had any personal success with it, but it could help.
Angelfish FAQ
That is the link to it.
When you dilute your tap water with ro/di water you remove the buffering capabilities of that water which is directly causing larger pH swings between your day/night cycle. In effect with the frequent water changes and underbuffered water you are putting your angels through CONSTANT pH swings which is incredibly stressful on fish.
Seachem's prime will fix the ammonia / nitrite for up to 48 hours detoxifying it. I would use that to help control the ammonia. As for using a chemical to help jumpstart the cycle, I haven't had any personal success with it, but it could help.
Okay, done messing with ph. About plants....(I'm worried it had bacteria or something), and was told that plants can actually hurt by taking out nutrients. Too many conflicting ideas 
my tank does not support adding fluorescent lighting. So, my ammonia has been zero for 2 days (wonderful), but my fish is still darting, and another is hanging at the surface. Checked ph....8.4. So, it's not stable, and I'm lost on how to make it so! I'm at my wits end and feel like a failure. Should I add flourish to help plants? Or just take them out since I can't give them proper lighting? I know the fish are stressed, and changed 10% with stress coat. Maybe I'll just take the plants out?
my tank does not support adding fluorescent lighting. So, my ammonia has been zero for 2 days (wonderful), but my fish is still darting, and another is hanging at the surface. Checked ph....8.4. So, it's not stable, and I'm lost on how to make it so! I'm at my wits end and feel like a failure. Should I add flourish to help plants? Or just take them out since I can't give them proper lighting? I know the fish are stressed, and changed 10% with stress coat. Maybe I'll just take the plants out?ocean
Aquarium Advice FINatic
If your pH is 8.4 and no big swings it's stable. What are your other readings, nitrites and nitrates? As for the plants I'd leave them for the time being, your fish are stressed enough, the less messing with the tank the better. Unless the plants starts start to die then take them out. Do you know the pH of the water the fish were in before? It does take fish a few days or longer to get use to a new enviorment. Are they eating?
Well, on the advise of someone who actually called on the phone to help me, I took the plants out. I had no ammonia for 2 days, but now have so slightly green it isn't .25.....but there. I changed 20% water with just stress coat. No one is gasping anymore, but all are clamping fins. Black is jerking (less, but still jerking). Nitrites-0. Nitrates-5. Ph-7.8. I should mention that the gasping, top hanging of my koi stopped after the 20% water change. My tap is 8 ph. After leaving it in bottles 24 hrs, it's 7.4. I know everyone says quit messing with ph, but I'm not...and it's still swinging. I now have a darting fish, a top gasper(less....but still up there a lot), and an unicycles tank. I now have ammonia again because I removed the plants. I want/need help, but feel like every step I take, makes me backtrack 5. I actually care about these fish. Why can't I get this right the black fish and koi came from a 7.0 RO tank with driftwood and live plants. I understand I can't duplicate that. But it shouldn't be so hard to cycle a tank, and create a healthy environment. Sorry, I'm just very frustrated. A lot of tears have shed over fish! Black's lip is now puffy white in the corner. I feel like the plants had bacteria (sitting on shelf at Lfs for however long), and my melafix soak didn't work. I appreciate you all, but I'm not hurting more fish starting over, if these die. Can't any one give me a step by step formula? Prime or stress coat? Change water daily, or let fish suffer the cycle. Medicate or just add salt? RO WATER (distilled, purified, spring, or drinking...no one mentioned drinking has a higher ph than tap)? And, what is tds? I know it's total dissolved solids.... But how do I measure? I have tried soooo hard. Spent hundreds of dollars. And I have multiple unicycles tanks, and hurting fish. My bf mom makes fun of me, because she got her angelfish 2 weeks before I did. She didn't test anything and never added anything but stresscoat. Her fish are BEAUTIFUL!!!! I'm not wallowing in pity, I just want to make it right. My fish have been through medications, ammonia, daily water changes, and prime. So, someone tell me how to go back to simple (since I over complicated it all), and keep them alive. Again: ph 7.8 (but was 8.4 earlier). Ammonia-under .25 (was 0 until I took out plants). Nitrites-0. Nitrates-5. I use strips for gh/kh. Very weird.... My "total hardness came out multi-colored (yellow on top, 150 brown on bottom (is this because I let the water age? My water is always off the charts hard. Alkalinity is 180 (which chart says is acceptable), and funny thing...on the strip, ph is above 8.5, yet my liquid test (performed 3 times) says 7.8. Why can't I just find a list to follow, and have a happy tank? (Literally crying...not being ungrateful)
the black fish and koi came from a 7.0 RO tank with driftwood and live plants. I understand I can't duplicate that. But it shouldn't be so hard to cycle a tank, and create a healthy environment. Sorry, I'm just very frustrated. A lot of tears have shed over fish! Black's lip is now puffy white in the corner. I feel like the plants had bacteria (sitting on shelf at Lfs for however long), and my melafix soak didn't work. I appreciate you all, but I'm not hurting more fish starting over, if these die. Can't any one give me a step by step formula? Prime or stress coat? Change water daily, or let fish suffer the cycle. Medicate or just add salt? RO WATER (distilled, purified, spring, or drinking...no one mentioned drinking has a higher ph than tap)? And, what is tds? I know it's total dissolved solids.... But how do I measure? I have tried soooo hard. Spent hundreds of dollars. And I have multiple unicycles tanks, and hurting fish. My bf mom makes fun of me, because she got her angelfish 2 weeks before I did. She didn't test anything and never added anything but stresscoat. Her fish are BEAUTIFUL!!!! I'm not wallowing in pity, I just want to make it right. My fish have been through medications, ammonia, daily water changes, and prime. So, someone tell me how to go back to simple (since I over complicated it all), and keep them alive. Again: ph 7.8 (but was 8.4 earlier). Ammonia-under .25 (was 0 until I took out plants). Nitrites-0. Nitrates-5. I use strips for gh/kh. Very weird.... My "total hardness came out multi-colored (yellow on top, 150 brown on bottom (is this because I let the water age? My water is always off the charts hard. Alkalinity is 180 (which chart says is acceptable), and funny thing...on the strip, ph is above 8.5, yet my liquid test (performed 3 times) says 7.8. Why can't I just find a list to follow, and have a happy tank? (Literally crying...not being ungrateful)
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
Well. If you don't want to stop fiddling with your pH then I can think of 2 different ways to definitively stop your pH swings.
1. Refugium. This is a second tank that will be plumbed into your main tank using a water pump and overflow. Generally 1/2 the tank size is recommended. Run this tank on an opposite day / night cycle to your main tank. I would put lots of fast growing plants in this tank. Water sprite would be a good choice since it grows like a weed and is hard to kill. You are looking for speed of growth not variety. Doing this will stabilize the pH in your tank from its day / night swings with the added benefit of keeping ammonia / nitrite / nitrate down
2. Switch to 100% r/o water. You can use seachem's Equillibrium to make the water be any pH you would like and remain stable. It is cheaper to buy your own r/o unit than just buying the water. But since you are already buying 50% r/o water I don't see it as a big deal.
Running extra bubblers in the water might keep the pH up during the night but it's no guarantee.
1. Refugium. This is a second tank that will be plumbed into your main tank using a water pump and overflow. Generally 1/2 the tank size is recommended. Run this tank on an opposite day / night cycle to your main tank. I would put lots of fast growing plants in this tank. Water sprite would be a good choice since it grows like a weed and is hard to kill. You are looking for speed of growth not variety. Doing this will stabilize the pH in your tank from its day / night swings with the added benefit of keeping ammonia / nitrite / nitrate down
2. Switch to 100% r/o water. You can use seachem's Equillibrium to make the water be any pH you would like and remain stable. It is cheaper to buy your own r/o unit than just buying the water. But since you are already buying 50% r/o water I don't see it as a big deal.
Running extra bubblers in the water might keep the pH up during the night but it's no guarantee.
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
Also, clear out some of your private messages plz
I want to know about equilibrium. I cleared my messages. Sorry. I'm also sorry that I evidently don't follow directions well. Or, just keep making mistakes. I really appreciate all the support I get here, and that you tolerate my constant pleas for help!
Mebbid
Aquarium Advice Addict
Seachem's equilibrium is a mix to allow you to use 100% ro/di water in your fresh water tank. It replenishes buffers and elements that the fish need to survive although it is mainly used for planted tanks. I have absolutely no personal experience using this product or anything like it so you might need to get some advice from other people on how it works or its effectiveness.
Fishperson
Aquarium Advice Addict
OP, is this your first time with fish? Because you haven't done much wrong, don't be discouraged! It is only natural to try and change ph, just remember that stable is better than too high for most fish. I believe white stuff on a fish's mouth is mouth rot, which is not good. But I don't know
Thanks everyone. I can't concentrate on sick fish, cause I have to worry about the mini-cycle! Can't fix the cycle, cause after removing the darting angel, now another one is hanging by the filter, with a white string hanging from his "poop area". It's not poop. I've been convinced it was parasites or bacteria. But isn't this a sign of worms? Wait, it could indicate hexamitia right? This is crazy! Honestly, I'm thinking of tanking the advise of some pretty smart friends! I'm putting all the fish in a 10 gallon, taking apart and bleaching the 30 gallon, buying apiece of established media from an awesome friend, and starting over. I'm just convinced whatever this is, will keep happening, because...well, it keeps happening! Now, what the heck do I treat for? And with what? All the fish have eaten food soaked in metro for 2 days now. I was treating my fav angel with parasite guard, triple sulpha, and kanaplex (as that is what had sparkle almost healed ....he went from hiding, not eating, clamping fins, and a big indent in between his eyes, to almost healthy.....but got worse and died shortly after I returned from vacation). I just ordered dr-worm flakes, which will be here in a few days. I'm guessing this is way too much med for my fish, but I got no clue what I'm treating for! Every time I think I have it figured out, a new symptom shows up. I'm putting pics of the white string hanging from fish hiding by the heater on my profile (album labeled "worms?"). Any advise is welcome. I think I'll get my tank right finally, thx mebbid, but I would really like to save my fish (the one in the pics was my very first angel. Raised him from a baby (he's still only 1/2 dollar sized, but he's survived it all). I'm just devastated that he's sick! Thought nothing would get him!
