Problems Cycling...

[PAXpress]

This is my first post here, but I could really use the help. About 2 months ago I received an aquarium and started everything up. Although I may have thought I had, I didn't get the tank cycled properly before adding fish. My problem now though is that I have had somewhat off the chart ammonia problems... I don't exactly have a high fish load, if anything I'm understocked a bit. I have enough filtration to filter all the water in the tank 9-10 times per hour. I've kept up with decent sized water changes, not too large in the beginning but when the ammonia tests were showing at 4ppm and then 8ppm and beyond I started doing 30% changes every few days. The fish seem to be surviving and not really having many problems, no deaths yet. I have been using an ammonia neutralizer, and for a little while I had an ammonia absorbent (zeolite I think it was) in the filter. My first question, will high ammonia kill my beneficial bacteria and put me back to square one? Its a 50 gallon with 2 Angels 2 Otocinclus and 1 Common Pleco (currently about 2 inches long). Also how long does it take a dechlorinator to completely dechlorinate the water I use for water changes? If I fill a bucket put in the proper amount (or even a bit more) dechlorinator, then add it directly to the tank, will that kill off some of my biological filter? Any help, comments or questions are greatly appreciated!

[TankMan]

High amounts of ammonia will kill your BB. Do massive water changes, like 75%

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by TankMan

High amounts of ammonia will kill your BB. Do massive water changes, like 75%

I did a 70%ish water change tonight and tested at 3-4ppm now (test before hand was above 8) so where I'm at right now, will my BB start to come back assuming I keep it below or where its at?

[steez]

You say that you only change the water every few days, with ammonia levels that high, you should be changing it every day or twice a day. You have to get the levels in the water down or your fish will die or be sickly.

What test kit are you using?
I add my water dechlor as i poor in the water to the tank, just adding as much as it calls for the water im putting back in.


edit: change it again. do another 50% change or more and get it down. obviously the water changes are reducing it. you have to get it to as close to 0 as you can

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by steez

You say that you only change the water every few days, with ammonia levels that high, you should be changing it every day or twice a day. You have to get the levels in the water down or your fish will die or be sickly.

What test kit are you using?
I add my water dechlor as i poor in the water to the tank, just adding as much as it calls for the water im putting back in.


edit: change it again. do another 50% change or more and get it down. obviously the water changes are reducing it. you have to get it to as close to 0 as you can

I will up the frequency of water changes, I'm using an API NH3/NH4 Ammonia drops test kit. So not letting the water I use for water changes sit for a bit with dechlorinator in won't cause problems?

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by steez

edit: change it again. do another 50% change or more and get it down. obviously the water changes are reducing it. you have to get it to as close to 0 as you can

My only fear with this is that when I do such a large water change, I can't get the new water the right temperature before I put it in the tank. The heaters stay on of course but I am afraid I will cause harm to the fish changing their temperature so drastically...

edit: should I just do 2 gallons at a time while I change the water and wait a few minutes in between?

[eco23]

As long as the temperatures are similar to the touch it's fine. Believe me when I say your fish would rather have a slight temperature fluctuation than be swimming in 3-4ppm+ of ammonia.

The beneficial bacteria being poisoned is the least of your worries...you need to keep the toxin levels as low as possible for the sake of your fish. The best rule of thumb to follow is keeping your ammonia and nitrIte levels at or below .25 at all times until your tank is stable.

Let your test kit dictate how often and how much water to change...don't base it off the clock.

Personally I would do an immediate 75% water change, let the water circulate for 10-15 minutes, do another 75% water change...then test. If your ammonia level is still above .25, do another. There is no such thing as too many water changes in a situation like this.

Ammonia absorbing products like Zeo-lite are not necessarily a good solution because they can potentially be a competing source for your beneficial bacteria and develop a weaker bio-filter. The best option is to purchase a product like Seachem Prime which temporarily detoxifies ammonia...but still leaves it available for the beneficial bacteria to consume.

I hate to sound so apocalyptic about this...but the ammonia level in your tank is a crisis. Immediate and massive water changes should be in your immediate future. Remember, at or below .25 at all times is your goal.

Please read over this-
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums...ow-116287.html

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by eco23

As long as the temperatures are similar to the touch it's fine. Believe me when I say your fish would rather have a slight temperature fluctuation than be swimming in 3-4ppm+ of ammonia.

The beneficial bacteria being poisoned is the least of your worries...you need to keep the toxin levels as low as possible for the sake of your fish. The best rule of thumb to follow is keeping your ammonia and nitrIte levels at or below .25 at all times until your tank is stable.

Let your test kit dictate how often and how much water to change...don't base it off the clock.

Personally I would do an immediate 75% water change, let the water circulate for 10-15 minutes, do another 75% water change...then test. If your ammonia level is still above .25, do another. There is no such thing as too many water changes in a situation like this.

Ammonia absorbing products like Zeo-lite are not necessarily a good solution because they can potentially be a competing source for your beneficial bacteria and develop a weaker bio-filter. The best option is to purchase a product like Seachem Prime which temporarily detoxifies ammonia...but still leaves it available for the beneficial bacteria to consume.

I hate to sound so apocalyptic about this...but the ammonia level in your tank is a crisis. Immediate and massive water changes should be in your immediate future. Remember, at or below .25 at all times is your goal.

Please read over this-
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums...ow-116287.html

I have been using an ammonia neutralizer but its called ammo-lock by API. I do realize this is a crisis situation, I just did a 50% water change, did my best to keep the temperatures the same, my thermometer read 71 when I was done and its normally 75+ so hopefully the fish will be fine. I'll test and see what its at now, if still not at a low amount then I'll do another 50%+ water change (I'm sure it wont be normalized with just the 50% change I just did). After some reading I decided to stop using the Zeo-lite a few days ago, hopefully I can get the situation under control tonight and be able to just do 30% water changes daily for the rest of the week. Gonna see how it goes.

[PAXpress]

Also, is using a mix of warm and cold water to get the temperature as close to the tank water as possible OK? I keep hearing that its not and the chemicals from the water heater is harmful to the fish.

[Homer8]

if your really having problems cycling try a tricycle first they are much easier.

sorry i thought of this and it made me laugh so i had to do it

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by Homer8

if your really having problems cycling try a tricycle first they are much easier.

sorry i thought of this and it made me laugh so i had to do it

Tried one, but the big kids beat me up.

[eco23]

Originally Posted by PAXpress

I have been using an ammonia neutralizer but its called ammo-lock by API. I do realize this is a crisis situation, I just did a 50% water change, did my best to keep the temperatures the same, my thermometer read 71 when I was done and its normally 75+ so hopefully the fish will be fine. I'll test and see what its at now, if still not at a low amount then I'll do another 50%+ water change (I'm sure it wont be normalized with just the 50% change I just did). After some reading I decided to stop using the Zeo-lite a few days ago, hopefully I can get the situation under control tonight and be able to just do 30% water changes daily for the rest of the week. Gonna see how it goes.

Good deal. The Ammo-lock works very similar to Prime. The benefit Prime has over Ammo-lock is that is is super concentrated and cost efficient, and it also serves as a dechlorinator.

Just try to match the temperature from the faucet the best you can. If they feel similar to the touch it should be fine. It might take a couple trips back and forth between the tank and the sink dipping your hand in to make sure they are similar. Many of us use water changers like Pythons and Aquaon brand (definitely worth looking into with the pwc's you've got in your future), and there's no way to match temps exactly since it's basically raw tap water you're adding directly into the tank.

You're doing the right thing and are on the correct path. Now it's just a matter of initially getting these toxins down, staying committed, testing daily and doing water changes as needed to keep toxins as low as possible. Make sure you check out that guide l linked before. Good luck

[eco23]

Originally Posted by PAXpress

Also, is using a mix of warm and cold water to get the temperature as close to the tank water as possible OK? I keep hearing that its not and the chemicals from the water heater is harmful to the fish.

Just match it from the faucet. That's what we all do every day. Even if a water heater leeched metals into the water...#1 none of us should be drinking it, and #2 a quality dechlorinator neutralizes it anyway.

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by eco23

Good deal. The Ammo-lock works very similar to Prime. The benefit Prime has over Ammo-lock is that is is super concentrated and cost efficient, and it also serves as a dechlorinator.

Just try to match the temperature from the faucet the best you can. If they feel similar to the touch it should be fine. It might take a couple trips back and forth between the tank and the sink dipping your hand in to make sure they are similar. Many of us use water changers like Pythons and Aquaon brand (definitely worth looking into with the pwc's you've got in your future), and there's no way to match temps exactly since it's basically raw tap water you're adding directly into the tank.

You're doing the right thing and are on the correct path. Now it's just a matter of initially getting these toxins down, staying committed, testing daily and doing water changes as needed to keep toxins as low as possible. Make sure you check out that guide l linked before. Good luck

Ya ammo-lock claims to dechlorinate as well, however I haven't been using it for that. I would assume its working wonders considering I've had no deaths yet. I'm pretty good about staying diligent with water changes and testing the water/ vacing out the gunk at the bottom. Once I finish this water change I'm working on I'll give the link you gave me a good read through.

[eco23]

Yeah, the neutralizing chems can be very helpful by temporarily converting free ammonia into ammonium which is non-toxic. However the effects are temporary and will only neutralize up to a certain level (I believe it's up to 1ppm with Prime for 24-36 hrs). That's why the constant testing and water changes will be so important. pH levels can also play a big part in how toxic ammonia is.

With the bio-load you have it shouldn't be the end of the world. First key is getting the levels down below .25, then keeping them low with pwc's until the tank is stable. Plecos can definitely complicate the issue since they carry such a heavy bio-load...and honestly I'm shocked the Otos are still alive. They tend to be very sensitive fish.

And just to reiterate so there's no confusion...matching the temperatures out of the faucet is perfectly fine. Also, dechlorinators basically work instantly on contact, so no need to let it sit out before pwc's.

I highly recommend picking up an Aquaeon or Python water changer. They make pwc's a breeze. I can do a 50% pwc on my 46 gallon in around 5-10 minutes tops. They're a life saver, especially with a larger tank like you have.

[steez]

If you don't have one of these Aqueon® Aquarium Water Changer - Aquarium Maintenance - Fish - PetSmart , you should look into it. It helped me so much lately lol. SO much better than buckets....

[Relentless]

With a new tank you don't want to do water changes that much. You want bacteria to build up and make your fish healthy. Also doing water changes that much can tend to bring the ammonia levels up. There's just alot of ammonia in water.

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by Relentless

With a new tank you don't want to do water changes that much. You want bacteria to build up and make your fish healthy. Also doing water changes that much can tend to bring the ammonia levels up. There's just alot of ammonia in water.

I've tested my tap water it shows up at 0. I just finished an 80% water change and it looks like I'm finally near the safe zone, shows somewhere between .25 and .5 I'll do another 50% change in a little while. And ya I bet those water changers would be a relief on my back, its starting to hurt from all the lift of 2g after 2g back and forth.

[Relentless]

I never really cycled a tank I usually just took water out of my bros tank half and half. You can buy a thing that screws onto you sink and you can clean your tank and Also fill it up. I know I remember when I had to use buckets it sucks.

[PAXpress]

Originally Posted by Relentless

I never really cycled a tank I usually just took water out of my bros tank half and half. You can buy a thing that screws onto you sink and you can clean your tank and Also fill it up. I know I remember when I had to use buckets it sucks.

I don't so much mind it. Almost "relaxing" in a way. Better than most other household chores.