What should I stock first?

[happygirl65]

Hello all,

I am filling my 55 gal today (finally!) and I will be doing a fishless cycle and getting some starter media from a friend. So in a few weeks I will be ready for fish.
I will probably be dosing amonia (not sure how much to do though...need to re-read an article on that again) since it will be at least a week before I could get to a grocery store for raw shrimp.

My question is, after my cycle is complete and the amonia and nitrite is 0 and the nitrates peak....then I do a large PWC...then can add fish right?

Then, how many fish should I add? And should I add my school fish first (leaning toward 10-13 lemon tetras if the LFS has them) or should I add my larger "ornament" fish first....pearl gourami?

In past tanks I have always cycled with hardy fish to start with and new nothing about the nitrogen cycle. But I always added slowly with no more than 3 fish at a time. Can I add more than that if I have cycled before ever adding fish? Or should it just depend on the increase in bioload?

It seems to me that the school of tetras would not have a huge bio load since they are so small, so would it be ok to get them all at once and then wait a few weeks to add the next species?

Also when should I add the cory's and BN Pleco? Should they be first/middle/last on the list? I know I want the BN to help with algae so I thought I should give it a while after cycling before getting him so that he can go to work.

My basic list looks like this

Pearl Gourami (pair)
Dwarf Gourami (pair)
Lemon Tetra (school of 10)
Panda Cory (6)
African Dwarf Frogs (3)I have several ledges half way up the backof the tank for them
BN Pleco
Ghost Shrimp (3-5)
Will also have several low light plants-Java ferns and anubias

I appreciate any input on species and stocking order.

TIA

 

[RoK]

I am not familiar with fishless cycling so I'm not sure on how many fish that you can add after the cycle is done. However, I think I can help with the order to introduce the fish.
The gouramis are probably the most hardy fish from your list so I would probably go with them first. You may encounter some problems with the gouramis squabbling though. The dwarfs may actually nip the pearl gouramis fins.
Depending on what others recommend on how many fish you can add, you may be able to add the tetras and gouramis at the same time.
Next should be the cories.
After that, you can just add the rest since the ADF's and shrimp don't add much bio-load.

You should probably wait about a week or two before adding each group.

 

[kostasonia]

isn´t it the corries in general the hardiest fish? or its the panda cory the special one? hm...

looks interesting btw, did you put plants already??

GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[JustOneMore20]

Lemon tetras are the hardiest IMO. Gouramis would be next...then BN, frogs, pandas are probably the most sensitive.

But you are doing a fishless cycle, so really hardiness doesn't matter. The tank will be cycled when you add the fish. Just don't add too many at once...you don't want to stress your new bacteria.

I'd add a school of lemons first...go with 8-10. Then a week later add the gouramis. Some gouramis can be aggressive, so it would be best to add the tetras first, so the gouramis don't have the whole tank to themselves and get aggressive when new fish enter. I would add the Pearl gouramis, then the dwarves, as Pearls are usually less aggressive. Or if you get them at the same time, add them all at once. A week after that you could add the cories, BN, or frogs. The order really doesn't matter IMO. Pandas are sensitive cories, but if the tank is cycled, they should be fine. Shrimp could go last...or before the gouramis. The gouramis may think the shrimp are food for them if you add them last, so before them would probably be a good idea.

 

[happygirl65]

Thanks! I do think the school is probably a good choice too, for the agression reasons you mentioned. I hadn't thought about that with the gouramis but since they will be a lot bigger even in the beginning I am sure you are right about putting them in first.

Right now the bubbles have settled out and I have tested ph, (7.2) and there is no amonia or chrlorine (spring/well water) but I tested for them anyway and it was of course 0. The water is clear and beautiful. And now the temp is up to 76. No amonia source or seeded material in as of yet. We have a Magnum 350 running on it currently as well as two bubble stones on opposite ends of the tank. It looks great I am really happy with it.

My husband wants to start adding fish next week...I think partly because the kids are SO EXCITED about having "fishies".

I had him read up on the nitrogen cycle and explained the fishless route and not wanting to stress the fish, but he still does not think it is necessary to do it all before and doesnt want to wait a month or more to add fish. ( I know how he feels about the waiting, it is hard, but necessary IMO)

He wants to do it the old fashioned way like we did in the past with lots of PWC and Ammo Lock and active carbon in the filter.

I am not against the work involved in testing and doing the PWCs (even daily if necessary) I just had this plan and was ready to go with it, now I dont know what to do.

Kind of a pickel for me... I can get my hands on some seeded material from my mother in law to speed up the process, as well as some pure amonia.

I have not added plants yet but was going to get some on the next trip to the LFS.

Can anyone give advice as to how long it would take to get through the fishless cycle? I think if it is not too long I may be able to convince him to just get plants when we go to the LFS along with all the testing supllies and food and all of that. It is hard to resist those beauties in the store though...I am sure all of you know what I mean. That is why I am afraid I will cave.

The other question would be is it detrimental to put fish in mid cycle? I dont want to start the process if he is going to be adamant about this. Although seeding the tank would probably be a good thing no matter what.

I know I can get him to stick to adding only a few small fish at first and it is usually about 3 weeks to a month between trips to town (100 miles to the closest LFS) which I know is why he wants to buy fish next week when we go.

I guess I am just on a further information quest of time tables for cycling both ways so that I can present him with more info so that he can see how much better it would be. I am hoping with that and some cost info on ammo Lock and cost of disease meds I might be able to show him how much better it would be "by the numbers" since he is quite logical about most things.

The earlier responses did answer questions as to the hardiness of fish incase I can't convince him to wait. But I am still hoping.

TIA for any responses. I really appreciate it.

 

[JustOneMore20]

Well I'll give you some advice, based on my experiences.

I have never fishless cycled a tank, but I think it takes around 4-6 weeks. That is a long time to look at an empty tank and I'll tell ya, I wouldn't have the patience to do it.

With my planted tanks, I've packed the tank full of fast growing plants and then added the hardiest fish. I have never had an ammonia or nitrite reading (of anything above 0) for more than a day doing this method, and I've done it on 3 tanks. The 2 tanks after my 1st one, I also used seeded filter media from an established tank.

Since you are getting some seeded material, you could buy alot of fast growing stem plants (whatever works for your lighting) and then add a school of 6-8 lemon tetras. Then watch your ammonia and nitrite levels, and if you don't get a reading then wait a couple weeks and add more fish. You'd have to check your ammonia and nitrite and be able to do water changes if necessary, but atleast you'd have fish in the tank. You should only do this if you get the seeded material and add a lot of plants...otherwise, you'll get too much ammonia and/or nitrite and stress the fish out.

The only problem would be if you have very low lighting...then most stem plants wouldn't grow well, so they wouldn't help keep the ammonia at 0.

 

[fish 'n' fries]

I'd have to agree with JustOneMore20...being another one who's cycled with fish. Get the media ASAP...that will help by introducing the bacteria and will make it cycle way faster.

Also, plants will help some too--the more the better. I had mine set up with just plants for a week or so--I never saw ammonia...did see some nitrite and had to do a bit more water changing than I'd wanted but not everyday like some people.

When you add fish you may want to add just a few so you don't stress the system more than necessary...but can keep the family happy. I can't imagine that having their fish die would be easier on the kids than having to wait a bit!

I've never had lemon tetras so can't say how hardy they are. A lot of people recommend waiting on corys and definitely BNs (you want some alage for them) until the tank's more established. Panda's some people find to be more fragile than some.

Sounds like a great tank. Enjoy!

 

[happygirl65]

Wow, Thanks so much! I was getting a little stressed about all of this. It is really great to hear that adding plants helps SO much and I am now even more convinced that I really want some beautiful live plants.

Currently I have the stock lighting on my tank so I know I need to upgrade and I am about 99.9% done talking my husband into building a beautiful new hood to go over the tank since it is the centerpeice in our new living room and we want it to have the WOW factor.

So I read some stickies, particularly Rex's ligting guide and am looking into buying the 2x55 kit which he can build into the cover we are already planning to build. I think it works fine with our budget and would give us 2 wpg on our tank. (otherwise he will build a similar item completely DIY since he has an electronis degree I think he might find this to be a simple and fun project as well as an excellent contribution to the health of our tank as well.

So I need to know if this is strictly low light or if the medium low plants would work in there and if I can still get away with not using CO2...

And could they survive with the stock lighting of 2x20 (Total 40w) for a week or two until we get the hood finished?

I am very flexible as to which plants to use, I like just about every one I see! I wanted to use Anacharis already but since I will need a bunch of stem plants what else should I start with for this light level? I have looked on plantgeek.net and like everything that I see I guess I just need to know if the med-low plants will work in there.

Do they need to be stem plants? Would anubias and crypts be helpful or does the root structure make a big difference when starting out and cycling?

 

[happygirl65]

OK I have just decided that my next set of questions are probalby better on the planted tank forum so I posted there.

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?p=734290#734290

Thanks so much for your advice. It feels great to know that we can ALL have what we want! Which of course is a beautiful tank with healthy happy fish and plants!

 

[JustOneMore20]

Do they need to be stem plants? Would anubias and crypts be helpful or does the root structure make a big difference when starting out and cycling?

Well stem plants grow faster...and the faster they grow the more nutrients they use up (including ammonia i think). Anubias and crypts are really slow growers, so they don't use up nutrients quite as much. You can add some anubias and crypts initially...it won't hurt anything...but alot of stem plants will really help keep the ammonia down.

And 2x55w fixture would be medium light IMO. You should be able to grow most medium light plants and all low light plants.

I have actually heard that Lemon tetras are pretty hardy. I have never kept them though, so I don't know for sure. I just go by what I hear from other people's experiences.

You can try a group of 4 or so first, see how they do. Smaller groups won't make the ammonia level rise much at all, so they should be ok in a group of 4. Then add 4 the next week. They are really pretty fish! I think you will enjoy them...and they will look really nice in a big school.

 

[7Enigma]

Well I'll throw out the opposite opinion of the previous few posts.

I do not agree with cycling with fish. We now have the knowledge to safely (and FASTER!) cycle a tank without the need of costly chemicals or many PWC's.

I also disagree with introducing plants during cycling. Yes you can effectively create no cycle by starting a heavily planted tank, BUT, you have to be very diligent with this. During the cycling process there is free ammonia present in the water and this coupled with a beginner to a planted tank can spell disaster on the order of algae and dead fish. This is coming from someone with a good bit of plant knowledge now....

You can successfully fishless cycle a tank in 2-3 weeks. Mine took 2. There are many tips and tricks to speed up a fishless cycle that a lot of people don't know. If done improperly, you can spend MONTHS fishless cycling. You can also be sure that when you introduce fish, there will be no, "Oh @#$#!!!" moments where you have high levels of ammonia or nitrIte present in the tank.

It also gives you time to research aquascaping, and in your case, about 10,000 pages of planted tank wisdom. I can assure you that your plant maintainence will take up vastly more time than your fish maintainence will.

So in conclusion here's what I would do if I were in your position:

-tell the hubby to deal with an empty tank for a couple of weeks, put a picture of a fishtank over the front

-during this time get him a 50lb bag of sand and during his most relaxing time tell him to carry it up and down the stairs for a couple of minutes. This will last about 2 days before he is thankful there are no water changes needed. (If you have a python, this won't work as well )

-Get a bottle of ammonia with NO additives/smells/etc. This will be your "food" source

-Dose to 3-5ppm (we can help you with the dosing)

-Keep the tank lights off

-Turn the temp up to 88F

-Sit back and relax, check your levels every couple days, do not let ammonia go to zero

-Smile at the thought of being able to fully stock your tank after the cycle, while not worrying about PWC's, fish deaths/injury, feeding schedules, disease, etc.

As you can see I'm very pro-fishless cycling both because its safer for the fish, and much easier on us!

Goodluck,

justin